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<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.10.01 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
It seems to me that the word "if" evolved within English. Shakespeare<br>
seems to have used "and" quite a lot where we would now use "if" (Burns<br>
uses it when writing reported, as opposed to literary, Scots too), while<br>
"if" seems to have evolved from "given that" > "gif" > "if".<br>
</blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
«</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
»</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I always assumed that "if" was a Germanic word, and the *Oxford English<br>
Dictionary* seems to agree … …<br>
</blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
«</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hey, Sandy, Reinhard & others,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I think you are right assuming an germanic/saxon root of engl. »if«,
but Sandy's hypothesis of derival from "given that" > "gif" might be
exaggerated. In Lübben's "Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch" I found
the following items:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
------------------------------</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id=":11n" class="ii gt">--------------<br>
ef (of, af, if), conj. wenn; als ob. {more or less = engl. 'if' - jo}<br>
<br>
icht, ichte == ift, 1. wenn, ob. 2. oder. {if, wether, or -jo}<br>
<br>
jof == of (ef, if), oder; wenn, ob. {if, wether - jo}<br>
<br>
{and - under the item}<br>
val, m. (u. n.?) Fall, Sturz; fig. Verderben, …<br>
{there is also:}<br>
im fal ift, falls    {in case, if -jo}<br>
<br>
efte (ofte, afte, ifte), conj. oder; efte--efte,<br>
entweder--oder; weder(wêr)--ofte,<br>
weder--noch; wenn; als ob, als<br>
wenn; wenn doch, ob vielleicht. {as if, if though, wether perhaps -jo}<br>
<br>
of (oft, ofte, ochte, af, afte, ef, efte, ifte),<br>
1. conj. wenn, sofern, falls; in indir.<br>
Frage: ob; als ob. 2. adv. oder;<br>
of -- of, sive -- sive.              {=> 1. conj. … = if, in case that -jk}<br>
<br>
Conclusion:<br>
<br>
==> »if, ifte« in MiddleSaxon could be used in the same sense as modern engl. »if«!<br>
<br>
Reinhard:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Modern Low Saxon has *of*, in some dialects *ob*.<br>
<br>
In German and Low Saxon you can use it in the sense of for instance "I don't<br>
know *if* this is enough." You can not use it in the sense of for instance<br>
"I'll get sick *if** *I eat hazelnuts," in which case you'd use *wenn* (or *<br>
falls* in elevated German).<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
So it is, unfortunately, »ef, if, ifte« got lost. But you could easily reintroduce »if, ifte« in LS just<br>
<br>
=>using it.<br>
<br>
Given the ken/knowledge of English nowadays in North-German population, almost everyone would understand it.<br>
<br>
Goutgaun!<br>
joachim<br>
--<br>
Kreimer-de Fries<br>
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow<br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>Thanks, Joachim!<br><br>By the way, I wrote:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">In German and Low Saxon you can use it in the sense of for instance "I don't
know <b>if</b> this is enough." You can not use it in the sense of for instance
"I'll get sick <b>if</b> I eat hazelnuts," in which case you'd use <i>wenn </i>(or
<i>falls</i> in elevated German).<br></div>
<br>I should have made it simpler by stating that the first usage is that of "whether".<br><br>As for the conditional, if can be expressed with <i>wenn</i> ('when', 'if'), as I said. In traditional Low Saxon and in many non-standard German dialects (also in archaic style) it can be expressed by means of metathesizing the usual sequence [[noun][verb]] to [[verb][noun]], the result usually being marked by <i>denn</i> ('then'); e.g.<br>
<br>Low Saxon: Ik äät Hasselnœt. Ik ward’ süük.<br>German: Ich esse Haselnüsse. Ich werde krank.<br>"I eat hazelnuts. I get sick."<br><br>1<br>Low Saxon: Wenn ik Hasselnœt äät (~ äten do), (denn) ward’ ik süük.<br>
German: Wenn ich Haselnüsse esse, (dann) werde ich krank.<br>
[When/if I hazelnuts eat (~ eat do), (then) become I sick.]<br>"When/if I eat hazelnuts I get sick."<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">2</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon: Äät ik Hasselnœt, (denn) ward’ ik süük.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
German: Esse ich Haselnüsse, (dann) werde ich krank.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[Eat I hazelnuts, (then) become I sick.]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"When/if I eat hazelnuts I get sick."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Both of these are somewhat ambiguous in that they can be construed as either "if ..." or "when(ever) ...". In Low Saxon you would have to say something like </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">elkmal wenn</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ... ("each time (when)") or </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">jümmers</i><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> wenn</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ... ("always when") and in German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">jedesmal wenn</i><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ...</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ("each time (when)"), </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">immer wenn</i><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ...</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ("each time (when)") or, somewhat elevated, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">wenn immer ...</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> to clarify regular results.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Distinction between "if" and "when" in English and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gin</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">whan</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in Scots certainly avoids such ambiguities. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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