<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 28 October 2009 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net" target="_blank">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>
===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Stan Levinson</span> <span><<a href="mailto:stlev99@yahoo.com" target="_blank">stlev99@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.28 (01) [EN]</span><br><br></span><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">I'll
stick my neck out there with David Cowley. The thing that makes this
a serious discussion is the question at the end: are "he" and "she"
sexist words (as opposed to sex/gender words)? How about languages
that don't distinguish gender in third person (e.g. most East Asian
languages that I know anything about)? Are those societies less
sexist? How about languages that insist on gender differentiation in
second and third person, singular and plural? Are they more sexist?<br>I suppose the origins of these
distinctions lie in societal "needs", but now they "just are". <br><font color="#888888">Stan<br><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font></span></b></font><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: DAVID COWLEY <span><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk" target="_blank">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span><br>
</div><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.27 (05) [EN]<br><br>Tom wrote:<br>
'On public transport ladies dispensing tickets were conductresses. Pure Male chavinism!'<br>
<br>
Forgive me, but I'm going to dare to stick my neck out here and say I
don't agree that this kind of ending is 'male chauvanism' (I don't
think you said that as a joke - right?). Its just an old feature of
expression. I was brought up with conductress, stewardess, actress and
so forth and never thought of these words as being any more than giving
more information than if they had been 'unisex' words.<br>
Old English and all other tongues I know something about seem to
happily use male and female forms, but because much gender use has died
out from English, even what little is left is attacked. I recall
talking to a feminist who declared that Welsh, German and French use of
gender for unliving things is 'sexist'. Also hearing an English foreign
lang. teacher wasting much of a lesson lecturing a beginners' class on
not saying 'stewardess', but rather 'flight attendant'.<br>
<br>
PC over-reaction I'd say - next thing it'll be sexist to say 'he' or
'she' when talking about folk - that's only taking the same thing
further ...<br>
<br>
David Cowley</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Brooks, Mark</span> <span><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us" target="_blank">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.28 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">David
and Ron:</span></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">PC
over-reaction I'd say - next thing it'll be sexist to say 'he' or 'she' when
talking about folk - that's only taking the same thing further ...</span></p>
<div style="margin-left: 40px;">That's already happening. "They" is spreading ...<span></span><br><span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span>
</span><span style="font-size: 14pt;">I
ran into this problem a few years ago when writing training material for
employees at my state agency. I frequently found myself writing, “When a
claimant calls, tell him/her…” I could never satisfactorily deal with that “he/she,”
“s/he” conundrum. I didn’t like the idea of writing he/she every time I wanted
to use a pronoun. So, I’d use “he” for a few sentences and “she” for a few. Still,
that didn’t seem satisfactory.</span></p>
</div>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">I
attended a writing seminar, and the instructor suggested making the noun
plural, so that we could just use “they” in the independent clause. I have
found that it works quite well with only a few exceptions.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Mark
Brooks </span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span> <span><<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.28 (01) [EN]<br></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I have said before on this forum that the grammarian who decided to
describe patterns of nouns as 'masculine' 'feminine' and 'neuter' did
us all a huge disservice. They are (almost) arbitrary appellations -
except where there is clearly a gender bias ( actor/actress:
king:queen).
</span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If I recall my (40 year old) studies of Sprachentwicklung from Krahe
et al. word patterns developed along fairly strict lines in PIE so that
a change in nuance effected a change in spelling of the basic root
concept. Whole families of patterns were built up and originally the
agreement of any adjective or article ( if they could be called such)
agreed with the ending pattern of the noun.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As these were eroded, so the patterns coalesced and from being
multiple they reduced to fewer - How many declensions was Latin left
with? 5? 6? French, Spanish & Italian have reduced these further to
two. German has retained 3 - for how much longer in spoken language,
one wonders?</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So the only problem with 'gender' is the word itself which brings
with it untold baggage - especially in the last 100 years and more
especially in the last 40 years.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If grammarians had chosen any other word to describe the patterns of
nouns - 'the covey of nouns'; 'the quilt of nouns' 'the blue/red/green
nouns' then we wouldn't have the problems we do with 'gender'</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Heather</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Worcester UK</p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Gender"<br><br>Beste Ron,</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You wrote:</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div><blockquote type="cite">There
must be something that triggers removing such redundancies, though, if
not outside influences then surely other types of changes, perhaps
social changes. In Mandarin you can see several very specific
classifiers disappearing and the neutral classifier <i>ge</i>
(啗, 个) spreading. Use of very specific classifiers used to be and
perhaps still is a sign of superior education, and social changes in
Mainland China may have triggered simplification.<br>
<br>So
my basic question is this: Can such redundancies disappear on their own
accord, and if they can not, what sorts of factors can lead to
abandoning classifying?<br></blockquote><div>Could
it be that just like European languages were somewhat modelled after
Latin during medieval times (cf. popularity of declension system),
Middle Iranian got sort of formatted like Mandarin, regarding gender? </div><div><br></div><div>Especially during the Sassanid era, relations between Iran and China were quite intense:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-China_relations" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-China_relations</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>I wouldn't be surprised that back then, Persia may have had language architects, trying to refurbish Iranian.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind greetings,</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>
Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</div></font></div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a rel="nofollow" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Gender<br><br>Hi, guys! ;-) And it's especially nice to hear from you again, Stan!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"They" as a quasi-singular gender-neutral pronoun is most definitely spreading at least in certain circles in the US. I have noticed that some people now use it naturally, namely even when use of either "he" or "she" would be called for, but most often when the person's identity is (kept) unknown. For instance, I remember one guy in an all-male meeting group saying something like "One of you handed me this note. They wanted to remain anonymous." In a men's locker room I once saw a note saying something like "To the guy who took my blue-and-white towel: they'd better return it or they'll be in trouble."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Luc, I don't know if Sino-Persian contacts play a role in this context, but you are quite right in pointing out a long history of relations among Chinese and Persian people. By the Tang dynasty (618–907), sizable Persian merchant communities lived in China, originally Persian-derived (though perhaps Turkic-transmitted) musical instruments were long established, and Persian painting started taking on what look like Chinese-inspired techniques and looks. Also, there appear to be links between Persian and Chinese dance styles, though Turkic and Indian transmission may be involved there as well. Furthermore, Sogdians and Scythians had long-standing contacts with the Chinese (as well as with Turkic peoples), and their languages are Iranian, too.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As you may know, Modern Farsi has at least one commonly used counting word for individual objects: </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dāne</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (دانة, Tajik </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">дона</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, also meaning 'seed' or 'grain'). It behaves much like Mandarin </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ge</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (個,
个). This is particularly often used when the noun is omitted the second time around, as in Classical Chinese. In Hamburg Missingsch this works similarly with </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Stück </i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">'piece'; e.g. </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Wieviel Bonschies/Marmeln/Geschwister hassu?</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> - </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Fümf (St</i><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ück).</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (How many candies/marbles/siblings do you have? - Five (pieces).) But the only classification that is going on here is in counting individual objects or pieces of objects.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br><br>
<p>
==============================END===================================
<p>
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.
<p>
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
<p>
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
<p>
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
<p>
are to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at
<p>
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
*********************************************************************