<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 04 November 2009 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">DAVID COWLEY</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (03) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks Luc - Yes, there is a point about length of words coming into
play, but I think that the meaningfulness of words also has to count
too. So, whilst 'Exit' is shorter than 'Outgang', or indeed 'Way Out',
both the latter have the root idea OUT, whilst Exit uses Latin/ Greek
for out, EX. We also find Exit being used as a verb in computer-speak:
'are you sure you want to exit the application?' - what's wrong with
'leave' I wonder?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There are many examples where less meaningful words are used in
technical or other contexts, and there seems to be an idea that this
somehow sounds cleverer than using the basic English. Some of the worst
can be seen in hospitals: 'Cardio-' this and that, instead of 'heart',
renal for kidney; why say 'bone' when you can sound really clever by
saying osteo- something ... lets not can it a Childrens' Ward or
whatever, rather 'paedeatric' (so unfriendly-sounding). Lots of this
kind of stuff isn't understood by less educated folk, young or older.
Is this to overawe the patients? Show them that its all above their
heads?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The same kind of thing can be seen in many other walks of life. I
despair of it, partly because it can also be used as a smokescreen for
what might actually be poor products, or to avoid sounding 'bad': how
about 'co-lateral damage'? It seems that English is at a stage where it
actively grows this kind of stuff - to make one's mark somewhere, or
sell a product, one 'has' to come up with something that sounds new and
clever, whether it really is or not.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So that's some of the thinking behind why we would do well to think
about going back to being more basic and using the older words, where
these say what we mean.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
David</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Lexicon<br><br>David,<br><br>Isn't it simply that Latinate (Latin, French and Norman) words are perceived as more "educated," "serious" or "sophisticated" and are therefore often used and played with to make things sound "classy," "scientific," "legal" and overall "legitimate"? Most Germanic-rooted words, in contrast, sound "simple" and "mundane" to most English speakers. This would explain much of what you and I consider gratuitous use of Romance-derived words.<br>
<br>We mustn't forget that Latinate words tend to be real obstacles to English speakers with rudimentary formal education. It has happened to me once or twice that in honest conversations such people told me things like "I don't even understand many of the words you say" or "Whatever you were saying right now," and they were referring to Latinate words that you and I would consider basic. Germanic-rooted English words, on the other hand, sound less "intimidating" and the meaning of many of them is etymologically more transparent to the average person.<br>
<br>I wonder if it can be stated that this has its roots in a social class system in which formally educated people or those that wanted to appear thus endeavored to keep out the "riff-ruff." There is a similar tradition in German academic writing styles that involves ample gratuitous use of loanwords and unnecessarily long and convoluted syntactic constructions.<br>
<br>
Just look at the three previous paragraphs and all the Latinate words I used in it! As an exercise, let me try this with fewer of them (the highlighted ones being Latinate words that I believe are understood and used by most English speakers with basic education):<br>
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</p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Isn't it <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">just</span> that words that came
from Latin, French and Norman are thought of as more "learned,"
"<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">serious</span>"
or "high-<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">level</span>"
and are therefore often used and played with to make things sound "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">classy</span>," "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">scientific</span>," "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">legal</span>" and overall
"better"?
<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Compared</span> with them,
most Germanic-rooted words sound "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">simple</span>" and "everyday" to most
English speakers. This would make clear much of what you and I think of as needless
<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">use</span> of such words (that
are known as "Latinate").<br>
<br>
We mustn't forget that Latinate words are often <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">real</span> hurdles to English speakers who have <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">basic</span> school <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">education</span>. It has
happened to me once or twice that in <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">honest</span> talks such <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">people</span> told me things like "I don't even understand many of
the words you say" or "Whatever you were saying right now," and
they meant Latinate words that you and I see as <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">basic</span>. Germanic-rooted English words, on the other
hand, sound less "off-putting" and to the <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">typical</span> person the meaning of many of them
is clearer because it is easier to see what those words are made up of.<br>
<br>
I wonder if it can be said that this has its roots in a <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">social</span> <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">class</span> <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">system</span> in which <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">people</span> with a lot of school learning, or those that wanted to seem
like that, tried to keep out the "riff-ruff." A <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">similar</span> thing has been going
on among German speakers that have been to <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">universities</span>: many of them needlessly <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">use</span> a lot of <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">foreign</span>-rooted words and also
long <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">sentences</span> full
of twists and <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">turns</span>.</span><span style=""></span></p>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Exit" is only shorter than "way out" or indeed "outgang", if you
can read and write, which most people couldn't. It takes just as long
to say. "Intercommunication" has one more syllable than "talking to
each other", and "veracity" takes three times as long to say as
"truth". Many borrowings, especially Latin ones were made precisely
because they were harder or less accessible than the Germanic
basics. "Inkhorn Language" one writer (Pepys?) called it derisively. </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby</div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">England</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The "status" issue with English and French became very complicated
up to and including the 14thC. The Norman invaders spoke their distinct
form, but the Angevins and Plantagenets who ruled from the end of the
12thC spoke a more "standard" French, and by the late 13thC there was a
distinct sense of separateness in Anglo-Normans who often resented
French favourites. By Chaucer's time, the Norman variety was clearly
seen as a rather parochial, unfashionable form. His nun:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"spoke the Freynch of Stratteford at Bowe:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The Freynch of Parys was to hir unknowe"</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The big turn-around came in the 14thC; Edward I at the beginning
of the century spoke virtually no English, other than some swear-words
(His opposite number, Robert Bruce would likewise have known little
English/Scots, though his French was probably much more Norman than
Edward's). Edwards great-grandsons at the end of the century, Richard
II and Henry IV routinely spoke English as their day-to-day language,
and the next generation, Henry V of Agincourt fame, spoke French so
poorly he needed an interpreter to speak to his betrothed, the French
crown princess. </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This remarkable switch of status has often been linked to the
so-called "Black Death" (though nobody called it that then) after which
the lower (English speaking) classes acquired more economic clout,
labour being in such short supply. Equally important though was the
rise of the merchant class, especially wool traders. It was they who
started to spread a widely-understood East Midlands dialect that would
ultimately lead to Standard English; that was essentially Chaucer's
written language and he had close connections with the court. The
merchants were frequently fluent in Flemish as well which undoubtedly
encouraged the trade-related borrowings, e.g. "freight".</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"The Triumph of English" by Basil Cottle is an old but good book about this change-over period.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Incidentally Norman French remained the official legal language in
England until Cromwell changed it to English, even though almost nobody
could speak it by then. After the Restoration it was briefly
re-instated, before everyone agreed it was probably a good idea to
conduct court proceedings in a language everyone actually understood!</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">England<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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