<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 05 November 2009<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.04 (03) [EN]<br></span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 24pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi all, Ron you write:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> Isn't it <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">just</span>
that words that came from Latin, French and Norman are thought of as more
"learned," "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">serious</span>"
or "high-<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">level</span>" and are
therefore often used and played with to make things <span style="background: rgb(204, 255, 255) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">sound</span> "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">classy</span>,"
"<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">scientific</span>," "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">legal</span>" and overall "better"? <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Compared</span> with them, most Germanic-rooted words
<span style="background: rgb(204, 255, 255) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">sound</span> "<span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">simple</span>" and "everyday" to most English speakers.
This would make clear much of what you and I think of as needless <span style="background: yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">use</span> of such words (that are known as
"Latinate").</span><span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So do you mean that only after Robin Hood and 1066 Saxon society
in England became classy? Jacqueline BdJ/Seattle</span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Lexicon<br><br>Jacqueline:<br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So do you mean that only after Robin Hood and 1066 Saxon society
in England became classy?</span><br></div><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Absolutely not!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Social classes existed prior to 1066. So I assume that there were perceptions of "classiness" associated with use of language then. This may have favored certain dialects of Old English over others, and there was Latin, or smatterings thereof for effect, as symbols of both piety and higher education which in medieval Europe were considered inextricably linked.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What I was trying to suggest was the likelihood that the Norman occupation introduced new features to the socio-linguistic landscape of England and parts of what is now Scotland. Norman constituted a medium of political power and as such was perceived as prestigious. It came to be "classy" (= "high-class" = prestigious) and therefore gained new speakers among people of English-speaking background. Many knew it as a second language (which afforded access and admission to the power elite) and among many of these it eventually became the first language. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It may have been similar to the use of French in 17th- and 18th-century Europe. Many aristocrats used French as a prestige language, because everything seen as novel, fashionable, stylish and "worth-while" was coming from France then. Some aristocratic families even cultivated French as their first language. If you weren't quite up there or were an aristocrat in a "backward" region, you at least peppered your German, Dutch, Czech or whatever with as many French expressions as possible. This then trickled down to the urban middle class. In the Low-Saxon-speaking region, some of that trickled down from then already more powerful German language. The Napoleonic occupation of a large portion of that region then brought Low Saxon into direct contact with French speakers, and many of them tried to communicate with the occupation forces in French. (They had no choice since they were forced to host French soldiers in their homes.) This reinforced the use of already existing French elements and new French elements crept in, many of which remain and have no commonly used equivalents in German.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Back to Britain. So the post-1066 upper classes came to consist of Normans, part-Normans and Norman-speaking English. Norman remained prestigious after the end of Norman rule, though English made a comeback. In the beginning, many members of the elite had to learn English and often knew it poorly. Norman influence and loanwords in English apparently continued to be perceived as prestigious because of their elite connection. I am sure that ordinary folks, especially in rural areas, spoke quite differently and retained older English elements much longer. It is only that such dialects were not written down because they were seen as low-class and were thus perceived as coarse.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Well, at least this is </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">my</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> birds-eye view of that historical period. I don't know as much about it as many of you.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I don't think you can turn back the clock. "It is what it is," as one of my dearest friends likes to say. Norman strata in English are very strong and in large part are also what is called "nativized", i.e. no longer perceived and treated as foreign but are quite ordinary (words such as "use", "simple", "sound" and "serious"). Other Norman-derived English words are more concise than equivalent English expressions and are considered less "clumsy". And then there is the apparently debatable, seemingly gratuitous use of Latinate expressions which adds another level.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">On a personal note, I cherish the Germanic strata of English and Scots and think of them as making for fine insular (i.e. somewhat removed) relatives of Low Saxon, Dutch, etc. By the same token, I feel that especially the Norman strata and influences have added to these languages a special "dimension" that I would not want to miss. It has introduced a type of flexibility that is quite unique among the Germanic languages. I love this about them, and I feel it stands English in good stead as an international lingua franca. While I also love Low Saxon, German and in fact all the other Germanic languages, English with its greater degree of flexibility and its larger palette of choices allows me much more room for expressive "play", and I particularly love this in creative writing.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.04 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.04 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Lowlands-L List <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM">lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Date: 2009-11-04 5:52 pm</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: DAVID COWLEY <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
 out, EX. We</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
also find Exit being used as a verb in computer-speak: 'are you sure you</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
want to exit the application?' - what's wrong with 'leave' I wonder?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Only a few decades ago computers didin't have much core memory and the
amount of space taken up by messages in English to the user was simply
too much. Instead each messag had a number and you saw some thing like
'Error 24' and looked up error number 24 in the manual to see what that
meant. Later machines had larger memories and it gradually became
feasible for the machine to use English, but space was still at a
premium so shorter words came to be favoured over longer in
computer-human interaction.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Many professionals would say this process has gone too far, the English
used in computer messages running to whole paragraphs. This gets really
annoying if you use the computer eight hours a day and have to look at
the same text over and over again. And I certainly don't want to be
asked questions by a cartoon dog!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
 Many words have special meanings in the computer industry. For example
if you quit a program then you'll lose your data, if you exit then you
won't. Again, these days a full explanation tends to be given so it
matters less.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In computing there is often the problem of running out of variants of a
word. Currently I'm writing a program who's main purpose ( not 'the
main purpose of which' :) is to change files into different forms. What
do I call this process? 'Edit' means to use an editor to change thing
by hand or batch commands, 'transform' refers to changes made by XSLT,
'morph' means to alter an image by repositioning points on surfaces,
'alter' suggests only a minor change and 'change' makes the user wonder
if he has to do the change himself. While casual computer users may be
oblivious to all that, many of my customers are themseves programmers
and a new term has to be chosen in the face of restrictions imposed by
many previous and often well-established usages.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I won't try to speak for the medical or advertising professions, but I expect their usages match their needs.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">Http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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