<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2009- Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Brooks, Mark</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (02) [EN]<br><br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 14pt;">Hi
Luc:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">You
said: “</span><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Oh
yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means 'queue', 'traffic-jam'...”</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">By
the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce “file” meaning traffic jam? </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Regards,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Mark
Brooks </span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">DAVID COWLEY</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks Luc (and hope you enjoy the book!). The Dutch examples you give</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are (like others in Afrikaas and so forth) fascinating. Clearly other</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Germanic languages have kept using native root 'nuts and bolts' to an</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
extent well beyond that of today's English. Whilst I've always thought</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the more native approach to be good for clarity and ease of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
understanding, it would be really interesting to find out whether there</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is any evidence as to how use of more native forms might shape speakers'</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
perceptions of their worlds, and expression thereof. Maybe an idea for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
some research - any Lowlands members aware of whether this has been</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
looked at?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
David</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">DAVID COWLEY</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I think Ron has hit on a lot of key points about why languages take on
loanwords, and perceptions of 'classiness'. Notes on French in 1800s of
great interest - perception here here in UK is that many French folk
are none too pleased about having lost the role of European 'Lingua
Franca' to English, whilst many English are (somewhat smugly) glad ...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Fascinating to think how French words and phrases must have become
trendy and 'in' amongst many ambitious English folk after 1066 - a
modern example to compare must be the spread of English in India today.
There were a few Bollywood films on TV here, and I recall that a
recently made one about well-to-do society families had the characters
peppering their Hindi speech with English words, sayings and whole
sentences. Contrast with another film, much older, about peasant folk,
which had few if any English words at all. Local tongues in many other
former British Empire lands going the same way - is that just an
inevitable fact linked to human nature to want to break new ground, be
different somehow? Its sad to see so many tongues threatened.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The point about the many layers of meaning one can bring out by
choosing from the vast English wordhoard is a good one of course. I
guess the most realistic scenario in which some updated OE words might
get back into English today would be to broaden these choices yet more:
one might end up using 'afterfollower' in certain situations, but
'successor' in others, just as happens with many other native/ loanword
choice pairs now. I think that's a realistic possibility - though it
would need a few influential trendsetters to start off and help
establish use.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Note on Latin: It's likely that, though seen as debased Latin, Norman
French nevertheless was plainly closer to Latin and therefore thought
less Barbarian than OE by Norman French speakers, and so higher up the
pecking-order of sophistication. This must be a lot to do with the idea
you touch on, that native English words sometimes don't seem to carry
the weight needed in some situations - we seem conditioned to that now,
whereas OE writers weren't.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(B.t.w., don't forget that Greek was the big learned tongue in much of Eastern Europe for a long time.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'd just like to add that it's really great to get to discuss some of
this stuff with interested folk - it really does help one get one's
head around some of these really tough issues!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
David</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Lexicon</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks, Mark and David.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">David, not everyone here may agree with your interest in (re)introducing Germanic roots, but I think what's really important is that you have made us think about these things and learn a thing or two from each other's input.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Talking about "input," now there's an example of a Germanic-rooted new(ish) word. In print it first appeared in 1893 but really started to take off in the mid-20th century. Scots and Scottish English </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">input</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in the sense of 'contribution' first appeared in 1753. Another example off the top of my head is "underdog" which first appeared in 1887. (All according to the </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Oxford English Dictionary</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>On a somewhat lighter (if not somewhat silly) note, Dutch <i>achtervolger</i>, like Old English <i>æfterfylgere</i>, thus "afterfollower," strikes me as sounding a tiny tad silly. How else do you follow but after? It suggests the possible opposites *<i>voorvolger</i> and *<i>forefylgere</i> respectively, which would be oxymoronic, wouldn't they? But then again, you could push it and suggest they could mean something like "previous successor."<br>
<br>Talking about "Germanic," "Latinate" and language history, to most English speakers the classification probably is nameless and just a vague notion, yet they represent tangible sociolinguistic layers in their daily lives. Since the history of English has been dropped as a subject in many or most schools the majority of Americans are not even aware that English is a Germanic language. People are surprised if not incredulous when I tell them that. (It probably doesn't help that some people, wanting to sound sophisticated, say "Germanic" instead of "German," so this spreads confusion and ignorance.) I have heard people insist that English developed from Latin or French, and they seemed to think I was cuckoo (or perhaps a rampant Nazi) for insisting it was essentially Germanic, which to them had a negative ring. (I've had similar reactions when I explained that Yiddish developed from German, which in my earlier, less patient days led to more than one altercation in bookstores in which Yiddish textbooks [with English titles] were mixed in with Hebrew ones. Grrrr! People actually assume that Yiddish is a sort of Hebrew because it's used by Jews and is written with Hebrew script.)<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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