<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2009- Volume 06<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (02) [EN]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Brooks, Mark <span><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us" target="_blank">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (02) [EN]<br><span style="font-size: 14pt;"></span><br>
<span style="font-size: 14pt;">Hi
Luc:</span></div>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">You
said: ╲</span><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Oh
yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means 'queue', 'traffic-jam'...╡</span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 14pt;">By
the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce ╲file╡ meaning traffic jam? </span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Regards,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Mark
Brooks </span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As written: "[fil@]" so with [i] = "ee" as in English keep.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This is a French loan, I'd gather. Of course in the meaning "(computer) file", we pronounce it more or less as in English.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But in writing they are the same (though context will tell them apart then).</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><div>Henno Brandsma</div></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">----------<br>
<br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (02) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mark: </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
On the pronunciation of "file" in Dutch: </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in Standard Dutch, so mostly in the state of the Netherlands they
pronounce it as it is written, i.e. "long" ie and the finaly -e
pronounced [fil@]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Belgium, at least in Brabantish (not sure about Flemish)Â we
pronounce it more the French way, with a sharp short i (which in
phonetics is the same as Dutch long ie! But a different phoneme, as we
would pronounce our long ie with actual length which the Dutch lost),
and without the silent -e [fil]. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So the difference is only the silent e, but northerners would write it in "phonetic Dutch" as /fiele/, we as /fil/ </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
 </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Greetings, Diederik</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Beste Mark,</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><div><div>You wrote:</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">You
said: ╲</span><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Oh
yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means 'queue', 'traffic-jam'...╡</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">By
the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce ╲file╡ meaning traffic jam? </span></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In
English spelling: 'feela' or 'filla', because it's felt to be of French
origin. 'Queue' btw, exists in Dutch too, but is written 'keu'
(pronounced köö) and denotes a billiard cue.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind greetings,</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</div></font></div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Lexicon"<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Beste Ron,</span><br>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div>You wrote:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite">On a somewhat lighter (if not somewhat silly) note, Dutch <i>achtervolger</i>, like Old English <i>Ãœfterfylgere</i>,
thus "afterfollower," strikes me as sounding a tiny tad silly. How else
do you follow but after? It suggests the possible opposites *<i>voorvolger</i> and *<i>forefylgere</i>
respectively, which would be oxymoronic, wouldn't they? But then again,
you could push it and suggest they could mean something like "previous
successor."<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Dutch clearly distinguishes between 'volgen' en 'achtervolgen'. </div><div>The
first verb has a general meaning, the second one stresses continuous
action. 'Achtervolgen' is the progressive form of 'volgen' (duratief in
Dutch). Typically, an 'achtervolger' is somebody in a race who is
trying to keep up with the leaders. Also, during hunting for instance,
hunters are tracking down game. The dogs 'achtervolgen het wild', chase
the game. 'Achtervolgen' has very active connotations, 'volgen' is by
definition quite passive. </div><div><br></div><div>By the way, when
chasing or observing wildlife, one is not always located behind the
animals (tracking). Sometimes one moves parallel with them (neither
before, nor behind)...this is also 'achtervolgen'. Some predators catch
their prey this way too, which I definitely consider a sign of
intelligence.</div><div><br></div><div>'Achter' is just the comparative
form of 'af' (D), 'off' (E), 'ab' (G): away. Originally, I believe
'achter' may have meant 'further away'. Note the different evolution of
'aber' (G).</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite">Talking
about "Germanic," "Latinate" and language history, to most English
speakers the classification probably is nameless and just a vague
notion, yet they represent tangible sociolinguistic layers in their
daily lives. Since the history of English has been dropped as a subject
in many or most schools the majority of Americans are not even aware
that English is a Germanic language.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>What
a shame. What's the next step? Drop the subject of 'History'
altogether? Quote: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to
repeat it (George Santayana)</div><div>This attitude makes me think of
creationism. Every species (read language) stands alone and was created
by God. Now that is what I call 'diversity' ;=)Â </div><div>Plus, it
probably doesn't go down well with some Americans that the name of the
family is 'Germanic' and not 'Anglic', 'Angloid' or something along
those lines. Ah well...you can't suffer from things you don't know.</div></div><div class="im"><div><br></div><div>Kind greetings,</div><div><br></div><div>Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</div></div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Lexicon<br><br>Thanks a lot, Luc, for enlightening me (or many of us) about Dutch <i>achtervolger</i>. It's interesting. Now that I know what the connotation is it makes somewhat more sense. There's the semantic element of "after" as in "go after" as in "pursue" or "try to catch (up)," although </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">volgen</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> itself has the meaning 'to follow'. And what is the difference between this and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">vervolgen</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (and German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">verfolgen</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> which can mean 'to go after', 'to pursue', 'to hound', 'to trace', 'to prosecute' or 'to persecute')? (If there were an English cognate it would be *"forfollow".)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Incidentally, as I mentioned quite some time ago, few Low Saxon dialects in Northern Germany retain </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">folgen </i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">in the sense of 'to follow'. In most dialects </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">folgen</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> has been specialized to mean 'to attend a funeral', 'to bury (someone)', as in 'to follow a casket'. You need to use different expressions to render the idea of 'to follow', such as </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">nagahn</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ("to go nigh/after"), </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">nakamen</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ("to come nigh/after") and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">achterrangahn</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ("to go after on(to)"). So this is an example of the ramifications of semantic specialization.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What
a shame. <br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You can say again, brother. I understand that this started in the 1960s and 1970s when they tried to make "boring" subjects "entertaining" and took the supposedly "less important" among those out of school curricula altogether. In my opinion, everyone ought to be taught about the history of their own language and of any language they study. The problem is that to remedy past neglect you need teachers that know the subject, and there aren't many of those to go around. Why? </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Because</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> of the neglect. This goes to show you what lasting effects educational neglect can have. And then people are surprised when "kids" don't even understand what Shakespeare was about, leave alone Chaucer.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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