<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2009 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (01) [DE-EN]<br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
from Heather Rendall <a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Jonny asked: How did the word E 'church' with all its
related varieties like DE 'Kirche', NL 'Kerk', LS 'Kaark'... etc. reach
the Germanic languages</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Beste Jonny</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>I seem to recall from my college studies of many years ago
that 'betehus' was an early (germanic) word used by Irish (?)
missionaries when first converting the German tribes. But it did not
last long.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>Was the influence of Greek versions of the Bible as opposed to Latin versions responsible for <strong>Greek</strong> <strong><em>'κυριακον' ?</em></strong></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><strong><em>Heather</em></strong></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><strong><em>Worcester UK</em></strong></span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Etymology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi, Jonny and the rest of you Lowlander lot of the etymologizing ilk!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yes, this "church" thing is indeed interesting but perhaps not a total conundrum. At least let me do a little bit of playing the devil's advocate with your argument, Jonny.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">First, however, let me say that the imported Greek-derived word was truly foreign to Germanic speakers. This seems to indicate that they did not know Greek themselves, perhaps also that the word had been passed along via other languages. I am saying this because West Germanic </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">*kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> derives from </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">a part</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> of an original noun phrase, which may be assumed to be Greek *κυριακὴ οἰκία (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kuriakē oikía</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> "house of the Lord") or *ἐκκλησία κυριακή (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ekklēsia kuriakē</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> "congregation of the Lord"). (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ecclesia</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is in fact a Greek loan in Latin.) Only the κυριακή (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kuriakē </i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> "of the Lord") part survived in </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">*kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. In other words, κυριακόν (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kuriakón</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> "the Lord's") is apparently </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">not</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> the origin of Germanic words for "church".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You wrote:</span><br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span>HARPER in
contrast clearly means that the Goths brought it with them. But that would
bring up the question, what the pre-christian Germanics should need such a
'technical term' for?! Besides that the beginning of Christianity in southern
Germania started in the 2nd century AD - that was <u>before</u> the
Goths arrived. </span></span><br><span><span></span></span></div><span><span><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Technical term"?! They weren't all </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> unsophisticated, surely. It was a new term describing the meeting place or congregation of a hitherto unknown religion. You can import such a foreign word irrespective of what religion you yourself follow.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Let's assume that the word did come with Gothic contacts. Would we have to necessarily assume that this was during or after the fourth century when the Goths had been become Christians themselves? In theory, pre-Christian Goths could have reported to other Germanic speakers about Byzantine churches, perhaps when trading items they had looted from churches. See, the word for "church" current among Christian Goths was </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">aíkklesjō</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, clearly derived from Greek </span></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ἐκκλησία(</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ekklēsia</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> < ἐκκαλείη <i>ekkale</i><span><i>ín</i> 'to call out'</span>)! It was apparently not *</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (or *</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kirik<span><span>ō</span></span></i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">)! What if this latter word does indeed go back to contacts with pre-Christian Goths that did have contacts with the Greek-speaking East Roman empire?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What other likely direct or indirect contacts were there between early Germanic speakers and Greek speakers? The earliest Greek-speaking communities in Germanic-speaking areas were probably Jews that followed the Romans. There is no proof of lasting communities, though such communities may well have merged with later arrivals. Greek was a major language among Jews already prior to the development of Christianity. It was used besides native Aramaic and mostly non-native Latin even by many in the Jewish homeland. Greece's Romaniotes Jews trace their roots back to ancient diasporas, mostly in Asia Minor (today's Turkey) and Egypt. During the early part of the first millennium, these were Roman citizens (whose ancestors had been driven from their homeland) and thus were able to follow Roman power before and after the adoption of Christianity as the Romans' state religion. Important Greek-speaking Jewish communities existed in Sicily and on the southern Italian mainland. These areas belonged to the Greek-speaking East Roman Empire. It was primarily from this region that Charlemagne and his descendants recruited Jews, especially merchants and specialist artisans, to settle in the Rhineland and in the Palatinate because the feudal system left a wide gap between the ruling class and the peasant class. (This type of social engineering came to be repeated many times throughout history, such as in British and Netherlands colonies in which imported Chinese were to fill the gap, and the social repercussions were similar.) These Jewish newcomers are the ancestors of the Ashkanazic ("German") Jews, though they may have merged with Greek-speaking Jewish communities that had arrived with the Romans </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">earlier</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. Eventually they adopted the German language of that region, and Old Yiddish developed from this. Indeed, there are old Greek-derived words in Yiddish! In the very early days, synagogues and churches were not perceived as being vastly different, as seen in the Hebrew terms: בֵּית כְּנֶסֶת (bēyth k’neseth "house of assembly") for "synagogue", and כְּנֵסִיָּה (k’nēsiyyāh) for "church", both containing the root כנס (KNS) which connotes "entering" and "congregating".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><br>But let's assume the word </span>*</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span> did indeed come with Christian Goths. How would the apparent fact that some southern Germanic communities had become Christian in the second century - whatever word for "church" they may have used - have prevented the eventual spread of the term </span></span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">*kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and its derivatives? The Germanic people's were not all that well connected with each other. In Old German alone several words for "church" (place and/or community) are known: </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">brūtsamana</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">brūtsamanunga</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gimeinida</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kilihha</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kirihha</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kristānheiti</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ladunga</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">liutkilihha</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">samanunga</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">wīhsamanunga</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. (Cf. Old English <i>cirice</i>, <i>gelaþung</i>, <i>laþung</i>.) Old Saxon, latecomer in the Christian world, has only </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. Had the West Germanic word </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">*kirika</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> come to dominate by the time those obstinate Saxons were finally beaten into becoming Christians? Or was it only the word of choice among the Franks that had done the beating?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Nice thread, Jonny!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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