<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 29 November 2009 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Jonny</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Etymology"</span><br><br><div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">
<span>Dear
Lowlanners,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span><u>(deutsche
Zusammenfassung s.u.)</u></span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>today I came across
a, for me really <u>very</u> interesting, question:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>How did the word E
'church' with all its related varieties like DE 'Kirche', NL 'Kerk', LS
'Kaark'... etc. reach the Germanic languages?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Its roots are
definitely from <strong>Greece</strong>
<strong><em>'κυριακον'</em></strong> (as a precaution - in Latin letters
<em>'kyriakon'</em>), but our western christian religion is based on
<strong>Roman</strong> catholizism!! So it actually should have had
become a descendant of <em>'ecclesia'</em>, as it is used in the
Romanic/Celtic countries, e.g French 'èglise', Spanish 'iglesia'
etc..</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>According to my
investigations these various derivates of <em>'κυριακον'</em> have already
been in use since/during the first steps to missionate Germanic folks, on the
continent as well as on the British islands. Why else didn't the early,
dominating Celtic, missionaries spread the <strong>Romanic</strong> version
of 'God's own house'? Obviously they couldn't, because there already and
everywhere in the Germanic languages existed <strong>another</strong> word
- namely the different forms of <em>'κυριακον'</em>!</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Or are all my
etymological sources on the wrong path? Isn't it perhaps <u>not</u> from
Greece, but much older, maybe Indo-European, and so it could reach the
Germanic languages on the direct way?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Even the authors of
GRIMM, who themselves made some thoughts and investigations on this
phenomenon, are unable to give a really substantiated explanation
- except of some vague hints on Gothic influence.</span><span> </span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><a href="http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/dwb/wbgui?lemid=GA00001" target="_blank">http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/dwb/wbgui?lemid=GA00001</a> <span>(insert the lemma
'kirche')</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span><span>HARPER in
contrast clearly means that the Goths brought it with them. But that would
bring up the question, what the pre-christian Germanics should need such a
'technical term' for?! Besides that the beginning of Christianity in southern
Germania started in the 2nd century AD - that was <u>before</u> the
Goths arrived. </span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span><a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=autobahn&searchmode=none" target="_blank">http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=autobahn&searchmode=none</a></span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Any ideas and
theories world-wide?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Deutsche
Zusammenfassung:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Heute stieß ich auf
einen für mich wirklich <u>sehr</u> interessanten
Zusammenhang:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Wie gelangte das
dt. Wort 'Kirche' mit all seinen verwandten Formen, wie Engl. "church', NL
'kerke', LS 'Kaark' etc. in die germanischen Sprachen?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Die Wurzeln liegen
eindeutig im <strong>griechischen</strong> Wort
<em><strong>'</strong></em></span><em><strong>κυριακον</strong></em><span><em><strong>'</strong></em> (zur Sicherheit in lat.
Buchstaben <em>'kyriakon'</em>), aber unser westl. Christentum basiert doch auf
der <strong>Röm.-Kathol.</strong> Kirche! So hätte es doch eigentlich eine
Ableitung von <em>'ecclesia'</em> werden müssen, wie in den romanisch/keltischen
Sprachen, z.B. Franz. 'èglise', Spanisch 'iglesia'
usw..</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Nach meiner
Recherche waren diese versch. Ableitungen von <em>'κυριακον'</em> bereits im
Germanentum verankert, als die ersten Missionierungen stattfanden - sowohl auf
dem Festland als auch auf den brit. Inseln. Warum auch sonst hätten die frühen,
vornehmlich keltischen, Missionare nicht ihr eigenes, roman. Wort für
'Gotteshaus' verbreiten sollen? Weil ebendiese versch. Formen
von <em>'κυριακον'</em> bereits <strong>vorher</strong> und überall
existierten!</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Oder sind hier
vielleicht all' meine etymologischen Quellen auf dem Holzweg? Das Wort stammt
gar nicht aus dem Griechischen, sondern ist viel älter, vielleicht
Indogermanisch, und somit ohne Umwege ins Germanische
gelangt?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Auch GRIMM hilft
hier nicht weiter - außer einigen sehr vagen Hinweisen auf möglicherweise
gotische Einflüsse haben sie nicht viel zu bieten.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>HARPER dagegen ist
ganz eindeutig der Meinung, die Goten hätten es mitgebracht; stellt sich nur die
Frage, was die Germanen in vorchristlicher Zeit mit einem solchen 'Terminus
technicus' anfangen sollten?!</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Außerdem reichen
die Anfänge des Christentums im südl. Germanien zurück bis ins 2.
Jahrhundert n.Ch., also in eine Zeit <u>vor</u> den Goten.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Allerbest!</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left"> </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Jonny Meibohm</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Lower Saxony, Germany</div><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.23 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi, it's been a while since I visited this beautiful site...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
About the stress in Altena, I want to point out that in the Dutch</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
toponym "Alteveer" (lit: "all too far" in Older Dutch, Modern Standard</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch "al te ver" with one short E and VER has stress) the first syllable</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
also bears stress. Btw "al te na" is Dutch too, meaning "all too close",</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
especially in fixed expressions like "je komt me al te na" = "you're coming</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
very much too close to me"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]com></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Resources</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
This reminds me of what I assume is folk etymology of the name of the city</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
(now a part of Hamburg) of Altona in Germany.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Founded as a fishing village in 1535, Altona was given city rights by</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Denmark's King Frederik III in 1664. It played an important role as a</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Danish city that could be reached from Hamburg's city walls by just a</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
short. Altona used to house a major Jewish community. Because Hamburg</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
severely restricted the number of resident Jews until 1864 (with one break:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
1811-1815), most Jews lived in Altona and worked in Hamburg which was</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
sometimes independent and sometimes under Prussian power.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Anyway, I have heard stories about a child or a blind person having to mark</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
the town's border, or Hamburg's border, or someone was to do so by throwing</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
something or other, and then the Low Saxon reaction was "Al to nah!" ("All</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
too near!"). Or was it that people used to say that Altona was "Al to nah"</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
from Hamburg?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Main stress is on the first syllable of the name, by the way, unlike all</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
those American places called Altona and Altoona that are stressed on the</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
second syllable. The phrase "Al to nah" has stress on the last syllable.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Anyway, does anyone know anything about these etymological theories and</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
what seems to be the true one?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I have also heard that the city may have been named after a brook called</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Altenau (Alten-au), which would pan out stress-wise. Also, there is an</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Altona Manor in Eldena, near Ludwigslust in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Altona and Eldena may well be related names.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Seattle, USA</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></div>
<br>
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