<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===============================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 January 2010 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===============================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">DAVID COWLEY</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (03) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Some very interesting bits on Low Saxon, Welsh, Catalonian. Here are a few more thoughts for the pot ...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
A factor which is often rightly said to have been very important for
Welsh lang is translation of Bible in 1500s: not only did this come as
an officially, royally approved translation, but Welsh HAD to be used
in churches in Welsh speaking areas, by law. This was to be a key
factor in the later high literacy and written tradition that was to
develop in Wales over the next several hundred years. I understand that
Luther's translation of the Bible helped form a basis for modern 'High'
German. Had there been a Low Saxon version at the time, this tongue
would have been a lot stronger. It seems sad that an independent Low
Saxony (nor Friesland) didn't develop, or that 'Low German' didn't get
to be the basis for standard German - it would have been that much
closer to English (and maybe these states would have been as much
against the Nazis as were the Dutch).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I agree very much that Low Saxon situation is more like Scots; and
Welsh situation is more like that of Basque. Having said that, there
are some cases where relatively closely related tongues both get
official recognition - Catalan after all is a sister tongue of Spanish
(C has 7 million speakers, more than Danish - this is also a big factor
in its strength, as well as the large degree of self-government).
Frisian in the Netherlands has a much better official standing than Low
Saxon (or North Frisian for that matter) in Germany.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Its often forgotten that these minority lang situations are not
standing still - there can often tend to be a mix of factors pulling
different ways; so, whilst Welsh is now used more than ever in schools
and in official documents, the recent vast choice of new English
digital TV stations has left the Welsh Channel much more outnumbered
than it was during the 1980s- 90s (when for many, it was one of only
four channels at all!). Also, I think there's a loss of many
traditional ways of expression in Welsh as older folk pass on, and the
Welsh of the young tends to have more English-influenced idiom and
often whole phrases. Still, its very strong in NW Wales (where I live),
and in many areas there is a mainly Welsh primary education for
children (the only way to get out of which would be to pay a lot for a
private school and/or be willing to drive a long way to a more
Anglicised area).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In today's world, it does seem to be the case that unless you have some
kind of independent or near-independent state, minority/ lesser-used
langs are normally going to tend to loose ground to the dominant one.
If there's little feeling of special identity, and everyone's happy
with being 'modern German', just how many folk are likely to be
speaking Low Saxon and North Frisian in fifty years' time, compared
with today?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
David<br><br>----------<br></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
A couple of days ago I responded to Marlou's query regarding
differences in Low Saxon and Welsh language activism. (Please see
below.) I take the liberty of adding a few notes.<br>
<br>
* Of course there is the aspect of relative closeness. Welsh is a<br>
Celtic language, is thus related to English only on an<br>
Indo-European level and is thus not at all mutually intelligible<br>
with English. There is no doubt about its separate language<br>
status. Scots and Northumbrian, however, are closely related to<br>
English on a "sister language" level. This makes it fairly easy<br>
to "dismiss" them as being dialect groups of English, especially<br>
when they show various degrees and types of English influence.<br>
This latter case is similar to that of Low Saxon /vis-à-vis/<br>
dominant Dutch and German. In other parts of Europe it is<br>
similar to cases such as Kashubian and Slavic Silesian<br>
/vis-à-vis /dominant Polish (the latter also /vis-à-vis/<br>
dominant Czech), Ruthenian (Rusyn) /vis-à-vis/ dominant<br>
Ukrainian, Jamtlandic /vis-à-vis/ dominant Swedish, Võrõ<br>
/vis-à-vis/ dominant Estonian, and a good number of "regional"<br>
Romance languages /vis-à-vis/ dominant Portuguese, Spanish<br>
(Castilian), French and Italian.<br>
<br>
* The cases of Catalan (including Valencian and Balearic) and<br>
Galician in Spain may be seen as a case in between the above and<br>
that of Welsh. Andalusia, Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque<br>
Country are considered "historical nationalities" of Spain.<br>
There is a fairly strong sense of separate ethnicity, and<br>
Catalan, Galician and Basque respectively are co-official with<br>
Spanish within these official regions. During the era of fascist<br>
rule this idea ran counter to the ideology espoused at that<br>
time, and the use of indigenous languages other than Castilian<br>
was prohibited. However, especially Catalan ethnic, linguistic<br>
and even national consciousness has endured and is going pretty<br>
much full steam nowadays, even though the Catalan-speaking<br>
regions are not separate countries. Catalans have simply never<br>
internalized the view that theirs is a language inferior to<br>
Castilian or to any other language for that matter. Of course,<br>
it helps that Catalan is the official language of an<br>
independent, albeit tiny country: Andorra.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The most recent developments in Catalonia are quite stunning, at least
to me. On 13 September 2009 the municipality Arenys de Munt held an
inofficial local referendum in which the voters were asked: "Do you
agree on Catalonia becoming an independent, democratic and social State
of law, integrated in the European Union?"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
It resulted in 96.2% voting Yes, only 2.3% voting No, with a
participation rate of 41%. After this many more municipalities held
inofficial referendums. So far 168 municipalities have done so. There
was not a single one where less than 80% voted Yes. The outcome so far
is 94.89% Yes and 3.21% No. Other municipalities will vote in two more
rounds in February and April.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Of course the participation rate is rather low with 27.41% (the vote is
totally unofficial) and the voting areas so far are mostly rural (e.g.
Barcelona has not yet agreed to hold a vote). But it's still quite
impressive: almost 95% support for full independance!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As I said, the vote is just a kind of opinion poll and has no legal
meaning. The Spaniards even say it's unconstitutional to hold this vote
as the Spanish Constitution wouldn't allow splitting the country. So to
allow Catalonian independance the Constitution needs to be changed
which calls for a two third majority in the parliament (of course two
third in all of Spain). That won't happen without massive international
pressure.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonian_independence_referendums,_2009%E2%80%932010" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonian_independence_referendums,_2009%E2%80%932010</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id=":4r" class="ii gt"><font color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (04) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
This is where the hairy problem of orthography comes in. The majority
of speakers wouldn't be able to tell a phoneme and a grapheme from
their own backsides. They try to write "as it sounds," i.e.
"phonetically,"<br>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
They write "as it sounds" but based on a very limited notion of what it
means to "write as it sounds". People from the Netherlands have learnt
Dutch in school and they think that "oe" is a good representation of
the sound /uː/. But from the context of Low Saxon this is just nonsense
cause the vowel that is pronounced /uː/ in Dutch and written "oe" never
developed into /uː/ in Low Saxon (in the great majority of Low Saxon
dialects).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
People from Germany have learnt German in school and they only know the
sounds /aː/ written "a" and /oː/ written "o". But Low Saxon knows the
sound /ɔː/ which is somewere between /aː/ and /oː/. Historically it
developed from the same sound that is represented with "a" in most
Germanic languages and as there is no native /aː/ it would be
completely meaningful to write this sound "a". Still many people write
it "o" cause they base their orthography on the phonetic rules of the
German language they learned in school instead of the phonetic rules of
Low Saxon.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
This problem can only be overcome when more people learn to read or
write Low Saxon (by media exposition or in school) and people start to
realize that the (Dutch or German) set of phonetic mapping rules they
learned in school is not the only possible set of phonetic mapping
rules.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: M.-L. Lessing <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank">marless@gmx.de</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank">marless@gmx.de</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.03 (02) [EN]<br>
<br>
Hello Ron,<br>
your detailed and interesting explanation still has a mark in my email
inbox, but I didn't have the time to answer appropriately. It is very
plausible that the uncompromising Welsh spirit results from their
having been a country and people in their own right, even somewhat
isolated. As to northern Germany, you are right that today people put
more stress on "Germany" than on "northern". Even I don't feel like a
separatist or anything like it. Separatism in Germany, if at all, is
mostly attributed to Bavarians :-) But I don't feel being ethnically
different from them or, say, the people on the upper Rhine. In former
times there were all these tribes, but where would we come...?<br>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, I have to admit: I totally feel ethnically different from
Bavarians or Rhinelanders. Of course there are many levels of ethnic
identity. And the level of ethnic proximity strongly depends on which
levels of ethnic identity you choose to compare. The more you look at
the surface and at recent developments, the more proximity you detect.
But if you go more to the core you will find big differences. And not
only random differences, but systematic ones.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Mating techniques in discos are the same all over Germany. The interior
design of supermarkets is the same all over Germany. Christmas markets
are popular all over Germany, a phenomenon totally German. The
Arbeitsagentur works the same in Flensburg and in Garmisch. Place signs
are the same yellow color all over Germany. Radio announcers tell the
same jokes all over Germany. All over Germany people read Bild-Zeitung
and all over Germany people believe the lies Bild is telling. All over
Germany public post boxes are yellow and cabs are ivory. The Lynx
fragrance is known as Axe all over Germany and Germans take a
"Frühstückchen" at half past nine in the morning. Most Germans know
"Bernd, das Brot" or the "HB-Männchen". All Germans know Goethe and
Schiller and most people have either read "Die Physiker", or the
"Schachnovelle", or "Die verlorene Ehre der Katharina Blum" in school.
People know "Good Bye, Lenin" and they have learned about the Limes in
school. Germans collect stamps and wifes use rolling pins when their
husbands come back home late from the pub. All over Germany the
"Kastelruther Spatzen" and the "Amigos" are popular. And so are
"Griechischer Wein" and "Weiße Rosen aus Athen".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I have all this stuff common with a Bavarian or a Rhinelander. Many of
these things I don't have in common with a Dutchman. Most of these
things I don't have in common with a Japanese. But what does this mean
for my ethnic identity? Ethnicity is about roots. Ethnicity is
something I get from my forefathers. But all this stuff above I got
from TV and other mainstream media or were ruled by the state.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
If we just look at stuff we got from our forefathers our common base
with the Bavarians shrinks dramatically. Typical "German" stuff like
Lederhosen, Dirndl, Oktoberfest, Weißwurst is totally demotic in
Bavarian but cannot traditionally be found anywhere north the Main
river. The traditional folk mentality is very different ("rheinische
Frohnatur" vs "norddeutscher Brummkopf" vs "bayrische
Urgemütlichkeit"). The traditional languages are very different.
Traditional Northern carnival ("Faslam") was celebrated in a common way
all over Northern Germany and very different from the South. Today it
is almost forgotten and southern traditions creeped in ("rheinischer
Karneval" and "Fasching"). I'm sure, if Northern Germany had become a
state of its own at the same time as the Netherlands did, "Faslam"
would be a national holiday in this hypothetical state and would be
totally different from the southern festivities.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Rye bread is another example of a very distinct Northern element.
Traditionally the North ate only rye bread on a daily basis and wheat
bread ("Stuten") was for holidays. In the south pure rye bread was very
unpopular and they ate mixed bread or wheat bread. I have done some
research into this and it seems there really is a "rye bread border"
that roughly coincides with the Low Saxon language area (of course it's
hard to tell exactly, cause no researcher ever tried to draw "bread
maps").</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The Low Saxon house was another example of an ethnic element that
clearly suggests that the North formed an ethnic unit. The southern
border of the distribution area of the traditional Low Saxon house
exactly coincides with the language border. Of course traditional house
types have absolutely no meaning for today's life, but they still show,
that there was some kind of ethnic border that certain "memes" (to use
a very generic term) were unable to cross.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Or the traditional dish "Heetwigg" (Heißwecke"). Known all over Northern Germany, but nowhere in the south.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There are many more examples of cultural elements that show that the
north is a distinct entity. Whether this distinct entity should be
called "ethnicity" or whatever else depends on your point of view. Low
Saxons certainly don't lack a basic ethnic stock, but they lack a
modern _culture_ that is able to transmit and steadily re-animate its
ethnic stock.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I at least, judging from my own critical mind and not judging from
"what other people think", feel a much stronger "ethnic relationship"
with the Dutch than with the (High) Germans.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Moreover, today nobody is so very much isolated. Life mixes people up
much more, forcing them to follow work and move, resulting in
intermarriage and all sorts of fraternisation, even with Bavarians. Any
ethnic difference _inside_ Germany has long faded into local colour. It
would be hopeless to base a cultural issue -- such as the preservation
of a language -- on this ground. In fact, reading your post I found
myself musing over the "feeling of ethnical difference" and whether I
ever felt it. I have travelled very little, but the world mixes in our
cities. Knowing so many people so different and at the same time so
much alike and so much like me and watching our cultures mix makes me
lose the sense of difference. Maybe I see it all too much on a personal
level, and maybe I am confusing nation, culture and ethnicity. But I
feel the overlap of cultures is growing, which for the cultures may be
not so good, while on a personal level it is just fine.<br>
Now, how can we preserve a language and culture under such
circumstances? Neither going separatist nor melting up in globalized
indifference? It must be a narrow path, and time is working against us.
It cannot be on an ethnical basis, everybody must be free to join or
adopt a culture -- or parts of it.<br>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ethnicity cannot just be adopted, but culture can of course. And after
you have adopted a culture you can transmit it to your children and it
can become ethnicity for them.</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Something new will necessarily result. And a culture must be attractive
to survive. Welsh seems to be attractive. What can Low German do? I
would love to know.<br>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Welsh is a beautiful girl. Low Saxon is a beautiful girl too. But while
Welsh dresses up and shows in public, Low Saxon is sitting at home in
her pyjamas. Nobody can be attracted to you if they don't know you. So
the recipe is: show yourself in public as much as possible. Please
don't be angry on me about saying the same dumb thing over and over
again when I drop the buzzword "TV station" here ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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