<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===============================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 11 January 2010 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===============================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2010.01.10 (04) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">We did say "The Ukraine" in English until it became a country separate</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
from the USSR. I found it quite difficult to make the switch.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There is, of course, "The Netherlands" and "The Shetlands", although of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
course there tends to be this thing with people who live there taking</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
exception to the usual way of speaking about it in another language. As</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I see it, plural islands and plural territories take "the". The</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hebrides, the Scillies (another one that the natives tend to object to)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
and so on.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
We also have "The Alsace" and "The Lebanon" gradually dying out in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
English.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2010.01.10 (02) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">On articles:Â </span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The list Ron gave earlier today of country names
opposes (Low)German d(i)e Ukrain(e) to Dutch Oekraïne; however until
not too long ago it was not uncommon in Dutch to use <i>de Oekraïne</i>. This was before it turned into an independent republic tho. </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Before it changed name to Zaire, Belgians used to call Congo <i>de Kongo</i>. </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Maybe it has something to do with regions rather than countries? The now independent Congo is called just <i>Congo</i>. If people still use <i>de Kongo</i>Â with
an article it refers to the colonial Belgian-Congo, mostly. Also the
provinces of West- and East-Flanders are in Belgium often referred to
as "the Flanders", i.e. <i>de Vlaanders</i>. This will always refer to
the region of historical Flanders (the county); never to the modern
autonomous federation of franconian speaking Belgium which includes
other historical regions as well. </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Not sure if
this is just a wild guess or if there's any truth in it, but using the
article in Dutch usually 1) sounds slightly old-fashioned or 2) refers
to more historical regions and 3) seems hardly used about sovereign
countries. </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The only counter-example I can think of is <i>de Soedan</i> (now usually written <i>Sudan</i> and without article) which isn't that common (anymore?) either. But this might stem from the colonial age as well. </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">A last Dutch example I can think of <span style="white-space: pre;">are regions like <i>de Balticum </i>(seldom?) and <i>de Balkan</i>, or <i>de Provence </i>in France. I'm sure there used to be more of them in older phases of Dutch though. </span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="white-space: pre;"><br></span></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="white-space: pre;">Diederik</span></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">----------<br><br></span><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Grammar<br><br>I agree that the rule of thumb is "regions with article; countries without article," Diederik.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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