<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===============================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 February 2010 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a></span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>
===============================================<br>
</div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.13 (01)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Am 12.02.2010, R. F. Hahn scraif:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="left"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The name <i>Platt-Holländisch</i> (Dutch <i>Plat-Nederlands</i> and especially <i>Plat-Hollands</i>)
suggests to me <i>any</i> Dutch dialect that is not standard; in old-fashioned
parlance this includes the Low Saxon (<i>Nedersaksisch</i>) dialects of the eastern
provinces. As all of you know, these eastern language varieties are now no
longer considered part of <i>Nederlands</i> but represent a language in its own
right. In other words, they are not “Dutch,” certainly not <i>Hollands</i>.</span></p></blockquote>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><big>Goue tiid, Ron & Laigländers,<br></big></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><big>Quite
right, beste Reggenhart, they are using the wording "plat" in the
original sense, the "plate taal", the open minded and folks language.
Of course the original term from one early bible translation is from
"sciwen in platen düdesk", platdüüdsk, "open, folkish dutch", engl.
dutch=language of the Lowlands, i. e. Continental Saxon. </big></p>
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Most Netherlanders that know anything about it also assume that there is a
close relationship between these Low Saxon varieties and those of Northern Germany, the
ones persistently called <i>Plattdeutsch</i> or <i>Niederdeutsch</i>, with this
old insistence on <i>Deutsch</i>.</span></blockquote>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><big>It
is the Saxon (DE sächsische) language, language of the Saxon dominated
regions once upon a time (and the later colonized before slavic -
wendish - east, Lübeck, Mecklenburg, Pommern, parts of old Prussia,
Berlin-Brandenburg etc.). </big><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Aside from dialectical differences, those on
the Netherlands’
side of the border have been Dutch-influenced and are written with Dutch
orthographic principles, while those east of the border have been
German-influenced and are written with German orthographic principles.</span></blockquote>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><big>The orthgraphy is the main difference, in my perception.</big><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">All of
them are primarily descendants of the Old Saxon language, not of Old Low
Frankish (like Dutch) and not of Old “High” German.</span></blockquote>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><big>In
my perception, the difference between Dutch=Standard Netherlands and
Standard German (DE, HiGerman) is much wider than that between Standard
Netherlands and good Low Saxon = platdüüdsk. Don't forget, the (old)
HiGerman consonant shift seperated the upper (southern) Germany branch
of the West-Germanic languages not only from Saxon, but also from Low
Francish. Admitted that there are differences to Low Francish not only
because of old, "once upon a time" different ethnical roots (but what
about these after so many old and modern "Völkerwanderungen",
dislocation of people, migration, displacement etc.), but also of
linguistic descendency, I would the like give the stress on the <strong>similarities</strong> between Netherlandish/Flamish, Netherfrancish, Saxon (Low Saxon in </big><big>Netherlands,
Belgium, parts of North France - Dünkiärken un ümmegiewing - and
Platdüüsk in Germany before 1st world war, there nearby even Old/Middle
English, Norsk, Dansk and Swedish varieties</big><big>. </big><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Because the name <i>Sachsen</i>
(Saxony) was hijacked to denote a Central-Frankish- and Thuringian-speaking
region, reference to genuine Saxony had do be marked by “Low” (or “Nether”: <i>Nieder-,
Neder-, Nedder-</i>), thus the German state being called <i>Niedersachsen</i>
in German and <i>Neddersassen</i> in Low Saxon. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But on the German side of the border, people can’t bring themselves to even
casually mention <i>Niedersächsisch</i> in reference to the language. It is
reserved for reference to the administrative unit. I am sure they assume that
doing so would confuse people. Well, the confusion comes from ignorance: most
people have not been taught that the ancestors of today’s North Germans and Eastern Netherlanders
were Saxons. If they knew this and would at least be exposed to the name <i>Niedersächsisch</i>
in reference to the language, they would also understand why these particular
writers from both sides of the border choose to meet. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><big style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Quite right, therefore (not at last because
Westfalia beeing part of the original Saxon language area) I doubt,
that the compromizing proposal "Low Saxon"/"Niedersächsisch" has more
chance of being accepted than <strong>the more radical speaking of "Saxon, sasseske, hd. sächsische Language".</strong> Might be - as compromize - speaking (in standard DE) of<strong> 'Sassisch/Sassesk'</strong>
to avoid the misunderstanding/confusing with the East-Middel-German
langage variety of the former Markgrafschaft Meißen (today federal Land
miscalled "Saxony") is also a solution. - In an italian speaking circle
this week I had no understanding problem speeking of my interest field
as of "lingua sassone", though.</big>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-- </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">joachim</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<small style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">--<br>Kreimer-de Fries<br>Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</small><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>
==============================END===================================
<p>
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.
<p>
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
<p>
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
<p>
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
<p>
are to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at
<p>
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
*********************************************************************