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L O W L A N D S - L - 13 February 2010 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.12 (05) [EN]<br>
<br>
</span>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div class="im">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=soz-red@jpberlin.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.13 (01)<br>
</div>
<br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="4"><font size="3">Quite
right, beste Reggenhart, they are using the wording "plat" in the
original sense, the "plate taal", the open minded and folks language....</font></font></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>--- </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'd never given much thought to the origin of the word "plat"; I'd
always assumed it was somehow related to "flat", i.e. it described the
lands the language(s) came from - just as "lowlands" does.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul</div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.12 (05) [EN]<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Â Â Â
Aside from dialectical differences, those on the Netherlands’ side<br>
  of the border have been Dutch-influenced and are written with<br>
  Dutch orthographic principles, while those east of the border have<br>
  been German-influenced and are written with German orthographic<br>
  principles.<br>
<br>
The orthgraphy is the main difference, in my perception.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Orthography is the one main difference that is omnipresent in all texts
and is a main obstacle in mutual understanding, but the other sources
of differences are important too: There are dialectal differences which
usually don't match the national border, but which separate eastern
Nedersaksisch (and German Low Saxon) from western Nedersaksisch. E.g.
'diep' instead of 'deep', 'boek' instead of 'book'. Then there are
phonetic adaptations like the switch from short 'u' to 'o' in words
like 'grund'->'grond' or 'up'->'op', which is clearly
Dutch-induced (everywhere along the German side of the border 'up' is
used according to DIWA-maps, while everywhere along the Dutch side of
the border 'op' is used according to MAND-maps). Then there are
adoptions of words and grammatical constructions from the respective
Dachsprache. These differences are still growing every days and on both
sides of the border. E.g. the Low Saxon word 'schröen/schroien' is
almost forgotten in German Low Saxon, cause it's not supported by any
German cognate. But in Dutch it has the cognate 'schroeien'. So we are
drifting apart. Our common lexical base is eroded, cause we are not
aware of its existance and we falsely assume or exaggerate the common
lexical base with the respective Dachsprache leading to divisive loans
and the sacking of non-standard supported common words like 'schroien'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I hereby admit, that I have a hard time understanding Dutch Low Saxon,
especially when spoken (so ruling out orthography as the main reason).
That somehow contradicts my expressed belief, that Low Saxon is one
language. But the fact, that my ability to understand improves when the
speaking person is older and if the recording is older, indicates, that
intensified Dutch influence makes the language harder to understand. I
guess prosody is involved in this too.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The language gap at the national border is very young. It definitely
can be overcome if the speakers actively try to avoid recent
Dachsprachen-induced innovations.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
My favorite example for this is Texas German. Texas German is/was the
German spoken by a community of 19th century German immigrants in
Texas. It's no dialect, it's standard German, but since the 19th
century it was influenced by English and it has many English loans,
English-influenced intonation, reduced lexicon etc. pp. Exactly the
same type of changes that have happened in Low Saxon under German and
Dutch influence. Texas German is still German, there's absolutely
nothing that would justify calling it a language of its own or an
English dialect (similar to how it happens with Low Saxon being
classified as Dutch and German dialects with the Dachsprachen
argument). Low Saxon is just like Texas German, except that _all parts_
of the whole language area have different foreign Dachsprachen instead
of just a small language island. So the difference between German and
Dutch Low Saxon is like the difference between English-influenced Texas
German and imaginary Spanish-influenced Mexico German. They may have a
hard time talking to each other, but if they focus on using German
words instead of English or Spanish loans, then they will be able to
understand each other.</span>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Quite right, therefore (not at last because Westfalia beeing part of
the original Saxon language area) I doubt, that the compromizing
proposal "Low Saxon"/"Niedersächsisch" has more chance of being
accepted than *the more radical speaking of "Saxon, sasseske, hd.
sächsische Language".* Might be - as compromize - speaking (in standard
DE) of* 'Sassisch/Sassesk'* to avoid the misunderstanding/confusing
with the East-Middel-German langage variety of the former
Markgrafschaft Meißen (today federal Land miscalled "Saxony") is also a
solution. - In an italian speaking circle this week I had no
understanding problem speeking of my interest field as of "lingua
sassone", though.<br>
</blockquote></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br>It's a real pity that our language does not even have a commonly
accepted name. It would make it so much more easy to educate people
about it.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There's no realistic chance to aquire the "rights" to the word
"sächsisch". It's tightly tied to the dialect of the
Dresden-Leipzig-Chemnitz area. Neither the inhabitants of the Land
Sachsen nor the general German-speaking public would be willing to give
up that name. The Low Saxons would end up in a "name war" with the
Upper Saxons if they tried to take away their designation. Think about
Macedonia-Greece. If anybody wants to fight for Low Saxon, there are
much more fruitful fights (TV, schools, public offices etc.) than the
fight about the name "sächsisch". It would be much more easy to
establish the uncontested name "sassisch" as a general designation for
the language. The linguistic entity connected with the term "sächsisch"
has a rather negative image in German general public. I think this
negative image is wrong and insane, but it exists nevertheless. In
polls about the most liked and disliked dialects Germans _always_ elect
"Sächsisch" as the most unpopular and as the least popular dialect. The
term "sassisch" in contrast is clean and not connected with any
prejudgments.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So if we want to establish a general term, "sassisch" would be my
choice. But now the "but": "Plattdüütsch" is the established term for
the language on the German side of the border. Everybody knows what is
meant by "Plattdüütsch" or "Plattdeutsch", every speaker of the
language fully accepts the name. It's highly unlikely that anybody
would switch from a fully established name to a complete neologism
(well, the term "sassisch" is in fact no neologism, but to the general
public it feels the same, cause nobody knows it). I don't think the
term "sassisch" would gain any more currency than the term
"nedderdüütsch" nowadays. That means, it's used in some written and
official contexts, but you can never hear any native utter the word
"nedderdüütsch" ever.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
In an italian speaking circle this week I had no understanding problem
speeking of my interest field as of "lingua sassone", though.<br>
</blockquote></div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I guess, there are two possibilites: Either these people were not
interested in linguistics and are not able to tell apart Lower and
Upper Saxon anyways. Or they are interested in linguistics and history
and they know about the Old Saxons, so the could understand what you
are talking about. If you try the same in Germany speaking to the
general public, using either "sächsisch" or "sassisch", in both cases
this would lead to major misunderstandings or people not understanding
at all.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#000000">----------<br>
<br>
From: </font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#000000">Subject: </font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.11 (01) [EN]<br>
<br>
</span>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">> From: jmtait <<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.10 (01) [EN]<br>
><br>
> Sandy wrote:<br>
><br>
> Perhaps parents and others are less likely to correct things if the<br>
> grammar is clear due to being used in other parts of the conjugation,<br>
> but an even stronger consideration is that children (at least children<br>
> who aren't lonely) don't pick up the bulk of their language from their<br>
> parents, they pick it up from other children. Once something is rife<br>
> amongst children the parents are going to have a hard time correcting<br>
> it.<br>
><br>
> So I wonder where the changes came from originally, then? (If it makes<br>
> sense to speak about changes being 'original'...?!)<br>
<br>
</div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Children do make a lot of mistakes involving regularisation, don't they?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
So since we're talking about regularisation, it might be a matter of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
which mistakes persist, but they're always available in the language</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
pool.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
<br>
</font>
•
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