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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===============================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 15 February 2010 - Volume 05<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
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===============================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
Am 13.02.2010, 19:05 Uhr, schrieb<span style="font-family: Arial;"> <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Marcus Buck:</span></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Orthography is the one main
difference that is omnipresent in all texts and is a main obstacle in mutual
understanding, but the other sources of differences are important too: There
are dialectal differences which usually don't match the national border, but
which separate eastern Nedersaksisch (and German Low Saxon) from western
Nedersaksisch. E.g. 'diep' instead of 'deep', 'boek' instead of 'book'. Then
there are phonetic adaptations like the switch from short 'u' to 'o' in words
like 'grund'->'grond' or 'up'->'op', which is clearly Dutch-induced (…). </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Quite right, beste Marcus,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">in some cases NL seems to have cloned somewhat
the <strong>modern-DE (NewHiGerman) vocal shift</strong>, think also of:</span></p>
<p><em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">EN <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>NDS (westfœlsk) <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>NL (standard-nl)</span></em></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">to shoot: <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>sceyten</span></strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"> [sx</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɛɪ</span>t<span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɘ</span>n]<span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"> <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><strong>schieten</strong><sup>1</sup>
[sx</span>i:t<span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɘ</span>n<span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">] </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" lang="NL">scaut, heft scauten <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>schoot
- heeft geschoten <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span></span><span style="" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" lang="NL">to shit:
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>sciiten</span></strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" lang="NL"> [sx</span><span style="" lang="NL">i:t</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɘ</span><span style="" lang="NL">n</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" lang="NL">] <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><strong>schijten</strong> [sx</span><span style="" lang="NL">æ</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɪ</span><span style="" lang="NL">t</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɘ</span><span style="" lang="NL">n / sxa</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɪ</span><span style="" lang="NL">t</span><span style="font-family: "MS Mincho";" lang="ZH-CN">ɘ</span><span style="" lang="NL">n]</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" lang="NL"><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>scait,
heft sciten <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span></span><span style="" lang="NL">scheet - heeft gescheten</span></p>
<p><sup><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">1)</span></sup><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"> </span>NL <em>schieten</em> means also: EN to supply, give, <em>geldschieter</em>
therefore: EN backer, investor, sponsor. I knew that today only from the
dictionary. - Reading
in the <em>Leeuwarder Courant</em> newspaper about a planned "Mr
Gay-verkiezing" in NL: »'We zijn nog steeds naarstig op zoek naar
geldschieters', stelt hij« - meant Bram Heerink van de Gay Group. I first
admired the ungirt, laxy diction and language use in NL newsmedia. But that was
my own misprision.;-)</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">That can fairly be a <strong>source of
misunderstanding between people!</strong> (As is with DE schießen vs. scheißen,
when deficiently traduced to NDS …) </span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">But for me, that does not mean that I
would renounce what I said:</span></strong></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">"In my perception, the difference
between Dutch=Standard Netherlands and Standard German (DE, HiGerman) is much
wider than that between Standard Netherlands and good Low Saxon = platdüüdsk.…
I would the like give the stress on the similarities between
Netherlandish/Flamish, Netherfrancish, Saxon (Low Saxon in Netherlands,
Belgium, parts of North France - Dünkiärken un ümmegiewing - and Platdüüsk in
Germany before 1st world war, there nearby even Old/Middle English, Norsk,
Dansk and Swedish varieties." </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: black;">The linguistic
entity connected with the term "sächsisch" has a rather negative
image in German general public. …</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Times; color: black;">I would care
less about that, but indeed, using the wording *sächsisch", amongst most
people requires to add some word about "Why the Saxons are not
Saxons" or convincing them to read: <a href="http://www.sachsengeschichte.de/" target="_blank">http://www.sachsengeschichte.de/</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Times; color: black;">On the other
hand: <strong><span style="font-family: Times;">if nobody stops with the
confusing and ahistorical appellation and begins consequently to name things,
issues, languages with the terms which are the preciser ones, justified and
legitimate by history and philology,</span></strong> no wonder that
"people", but in first line the addressees will be, whenever, the
professional audiences, don't see reason to change attitude and concept of the
language family they are talking about.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">The term
"sassisch" in contrast is clean and not connected with any
prejudgments. So if we want to establish a general term, "sassisch"
would be my choice. But now the "but": "Plattdüütsch" is
the established term for the language on the German side of the border. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">To tell the truth: the (Low) Saxon varieties
in Germany and those plus the Low Francish ones in the Neighborstates are <strong>all
Low German </strong><em><b>DE Niederdeutsch</b></em><strong> for me, they would
also fit to Lowlandish or </strong><em><b>Laiglandisk</b></em><strong>.</strong>
('Netherlands' <em>DE
Niederländisch</em> as superordinate concept would not go any more, because
definitely attached to the standard language of NL and Belgium.)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Trying to find accordance at least about the
linguistic-historical facts:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Letting out todays minor varieties as
Frisian, we have in today existing Germanic-originating languages different
branches. Letting out also the Skandinavic varieties (which's provenience I
don't know in detail), we have on the European continent (so letting out also
the british followers of continental Anglo-Saxon) two branches of Germanic
languages:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">1. Those which made the "Old High German
consonant shift" (in the middle of the 1. millenium p. C.) and devoloped
to the Middle- and Upper German dialects resulting first in Old and Middle High
German, later - with another vocal shift - to New High German and latest to the
Standard and literary German, DE.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">2. Those which had not followed this
consonant shift: today: Dutch (standard NL) and the dialects/vernaculars of
Flemish, Dutch, Neddersaksish, Africaans, and Low German varieties.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">What is missing, is a common name for this
latter group of "continental North See Germanic" languages: the tongs
sproken in the succession of Middle Low German ≈ Middle Dutch.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">I admit: "Saxon" is not fully
exact, because Low Francish in Germany,
Netherlands and Belgium is not
fully embraced in this term. Not ehnically (what is to minor validate), not
from language history.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">"Saxon-Low Francish /
Sassesk-Nidderfrankisk / Sachsisch-Niederfränkisch"</span></strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"> - could some denotation like these be the termination
to name this group of modern Germanic varieties on the continent (and Africaans
and other descendants outside included)?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">I would also like to call them _all_ <strong>"Dutch
Languages / Plat Düüdske Sprauken / Niederdeutschländisch" or "Plat
Germanic Language(s)"</strong> ("plat" here as placeholder for
not-consonant-shifted modern Germanic language varieties".</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">But I'm open to any other idea for the
proposal to find a common denomination for this language family.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
joachim<br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">--<br>
Kreimer-de Fries<br>
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br style="">
<span style=""></span></p>
<p>
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