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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 February 2010 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Jonny</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L
"Language varieties"</span><br>
<br>
</span>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Dear
Lowlanners,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>yesterday I wrote
to my friend Piet Bult (NL) the following sentence:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><br><span>> </span>Un'
'soms<span>-</span>' hett dat in Middelnedersa<span>k</span>sisch ouk
noch geben t.B. in 'somstiid' =
NLÂ </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>>
</span>'somstijd' = E 'sometimes'; man - dat kennt wii ne meyhr.</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>(And 'soms-' did
exist in Middle Low Saxon as well, e.g. in 'somstiid' = NL 'somstijd' = E
'sometimes'; but we don't know it any longer.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>I didn't feel
comfortable using the term 'Middelnedersaksisch' in this context. Though
it
probably shouldn't make a great difference to the sense of the whole I
better
should have written 'Middel-Nedderdüütsch' = 'Mittel-Niederdeutsch' =
'Middle Low German' instead because I haven't got any
knowledge around the kind, the special variety of Middle Low Saxon
used in The Nederlands at that time.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>In other words:
the vocable 'somstiid' is from the German type of Middle Low Saxon and
could have been different in NL.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left"><span>Perhaps we
shouldn't
throw out the baby with the bath
water and keep the old linguistic terms alive - 'somstiids' they may
be useful.</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Allerbest!</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Jonny
Meibohm</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Lower
Saxony, Germany</div>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L
"Language varieties"<br>
<br>
</span></span>Beste Marcus,<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<br>
> It's just a common lack, nothing that would be a base for a new
Aldietse Beweging (C. J.<br>
> Hansen's Aldietse Beweging actually was an Alnederdietse Beweging,
<<br>
> <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldietse_Beweging" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldietse_Beweging</a>>).
The genetic relation of<br>
> Dutch and Saxon is not closer than the relation of Saxon and
German.<br>
<br>
Just look at the map here: <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Aldietsterritorium.png" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Aldietsterritorium.png</a><br>
And cut off the southern half of Belgium btw ;=).<br>
A new Chile has been born with Hamburg as Nueva Santiago and Ron
starring as Allende.<br>
Moreover, Scotland will be like the Chilean claim in Antarctica and not
surprisingly, Chile has the best credit ratings in Latin America. Yes,
yes.<br>
<br>
Kind greetings,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
</font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Peter Snepvangers</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au">snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (04) [EN-NDS]</span><span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
<br>
</span></span>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">-----
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">From:
<span><span>Marcus
Buck</span></span><span> </span><span><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><div class="im"><br>Subject:
<span>LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (03)
[EN-NDS]</span><br><br>From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>>>
</div></span></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="NL"><br></span></p>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="NL">Nu,
wou
dünket ju dat? Is dat nig förwaar en grunt, et us nig tou swår to
maken met de
benöimge van den Nidderdüüdsk-Nidderlandsken dialektkontinuum? Wan
to'ner
tiit, dau platdüüdsk no åldagsprauk was, auk de Flaamsken un
Nidderlandsken
eere sprauk "Nederduits" nöimt hewwet. (Ås je auk de Ousterriiker nin
problem
hewwet eere sprauke Düüdsk of Buawendüüdsk/Haugdüüdsk to
nöimen?)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="NL"></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">___________________________________________</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">What
do you think about
that?
Wouldn't that be a reason, not to be too scrupulous / complicated in
the term
for the Low-German-Netherlandish dialect continuum? As to times, when
Low
German still had been everyday speech, Flemings and the Dutch called
there
language "Low German". (Like as the Austrians have no problem calling
their
language German or Upper-/High-German?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">_________________________________________</span></div>
</div>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Things
change.<br><br>
Marcus
Buck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"></span></span> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial black,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><font color="#000000" size="3">Hello
Lowlanderen,</font></span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial black,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><font color="#000000" size="3">my parents have both passed away now, but I
do remember distinctly
my father referring to his Limburgs dialect as Platts! He knew and
could speak
Frisian as well but I cannot ever remember him calling Frisian as
Platts. He
always said Fries was not Dutch or Limburgs but was Fries!!! He could
speak at
least 10 different languages very fluently and fondly spoke of old
Saxon
as Platts or Nederduits as well. He genuinely believed his Limburgs
was
a tonal pitch language and was as old as Old Saxon, unfortunately I
was too
nieve to know any different or to even be able to ask him to explain
his
thoughts. Opportunity lost here. My dad did not believe that Limburgs
was a
transistional language between Dutch and German but accepted the
closeness. He
thought it was sufficiently distinct but never bothered to argue his
point.
What I am trying to say is that he had no problems with Sax being
called
Nederduits rather that some Dutch variation. Beste </font></span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial black,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><font color="#000000" size="3">Peter Snepvangers</font></span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial black,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><font color="#000000" size="3"><a href="mailto:snepvangers@optushome.com.au" target="_blank">snepvangers@optushome.com.au</a></font></span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial black,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><font color="#000000" size="3">Australia</font></span></span></p>
----------<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Helge Tietz</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (04) [EN-NDS]</span><br>
<span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</span></span>Marcus, you wrote: "<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The
genetic relation of Dutch and Saxon is not closer than the relation of
Saxon
and German"<br><br>I am not too certain about that. There a more common
features between Northern Germany and the Netherlands than just
linguistic ones. Take a look on rural settlements style and traditional
farm houses, the diet and folk songs and traditions. East of Amersfoort
you effectlively find the same traditional farm houses in style as you
do over the whole of Northern Germany up to Sleswick. Along the
North-Sea coast you find the Frisian style houses which you also
encounter in East and North Friesland. The single farm style spread
across the country side is predominant, while south of the Benrath line
(the linguistic border of the Low Saxon / Low Franconian language area)
rural settlements are predominantly organized in narrow villages. The
Northern German Hanseatic league had never a foothold in southern
Germany but was strongly present in the Netherlands and communication
between the Dutch Hanseatic cities and the Northern German ones was
usually in either Low Saxon or Dutch which was mutually intelligible,
something which was not possible when communicating with Southern
Germany. Until 1871 quite a few territories of what is now Germany had
actually Dutch as their educational and church language, such as the
Klever Land almost down to Krefeld, East Friesland and also many schools
in North Friesland had Dutch as their first language because many North
Frisians worked on Dutch trading ships which made it necessary to be
able to communicate in Dutch while High German was irrelevant. This
changed drastically after 1871. I have been living for more then 10
years now in the Netherlands as a Sleswig-Holsteener and there is no
doubt to me that culturally, linguistically and genetically the
Netherlands and Northern Germany are much closer linked to each other
then to Southern Germany and the national border between Northern
Germany and the Netherlands is an absolute artificial one. But there
are, of course, many examples around the world where that is the case.
And it is not always that easy and black and white, Although, I would
say that the Lower Franconian-speaking area in the German Rhineland is
definitely more Dutch/Northern German, to draw a border to the
Ripuarian-Franconian speaking areas further south would also be an
artificially one. South Lower Franconian and Ripuarian is mutually
intelligible and the language shift appears gradually and not abrupt as
is the case e.g. between Hann. Muenden and Witzenhausen on the border of
Lower Saxony and Hesse. So although the national border between the
Netherlands and Northern Germany is artificial to draw a border on the
southern extends of Low Franconian speach would be equally as
artificial. I tend to forget about national states and rather see the
localities as units, perhaps even each individual, it is up to anyone to
decide where he/she feels they belong
to.<br><br>Groeten,<br>Helge<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span>"Joachim
Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:Â </span>LL-L
"Language varieties" 2010.02.17 (01) [EN-NL<span class="gI">]<br>
<br>
</span>
<div><big>Dag auk wier, Marcus & ålle Nidderlandisken,</big></div>
<div><br></div>
Am
17.02.2010, 05:03 Uhr, Marcus Buck scraif:
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Things
change.<br>
70 years ago Austrians happily joined Germany and felt good under the
label German. They still feel okay with labeling their language German,
but don't
dare to call their nationality German. They would strongly refuse that.
And the
Dutch nowadays refuse to be labeled "German" too. Sentiments like
that are of limited relevance for linguistic terms, but if you want to
establish terms you cannot neglect it.</span></p></blockquote>
<p><big>Apart
the fact that the the treatment by and the <em>majoritarian attitude
toward</em> Hitler-/Nazi-Germany has been extremely contrarian of
Austria on the one hand and Netherlands and Belgium on the other hand,
you have in the case of Austria (as of the <em>then manaced</em> and
multilingual Switzerland) the ability to distinguish between the <strong>terms
of language on the one hand and nation/state (and/or ethnicity) on the
other.</strong></big></p>
<p><big>Not to make this distinction, a
scientific, historical, linguistical debate and explanation renders </big><big>almost</big><big>
impossible or at least extremely complicated to have a reasonable talk
about it, so that on the end even cultured classes (to say nothing of
the cultural disadvantaged masses) are confused.</big></p>
<p><big>Your
postulate, beste Marcus, would end in calling US-, Canadian, Australian
etc. English <strong>not "xy-English" but "United-Statish", "Canadian",
"Australian"</strong> etc. - But what than with the indegenous languages
there?<br></big></p>
<p><big>It would also end in <strong>British
English speakers to refuse having a "Germanic" language </strong>because
there is another state of "Germany", with which having had terrible
experiences.</big></p>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">On
the other side, at least in German "Niederdeutsch" already is an
established term for anything not affected by the High German sound
shift. So
there actually is no reason to "search" for a term.</span></p></blockquote>
<p><big>That
has been the message of my post. Oh no, again this inevitable
misapprehending of your quoted phrase above. Of course, you think "Low
German /Niederdeutsch / Nederduits / Nidderdüüdsk / Nederdütsch" being
restricted to Low German language varieties <em>in the Federal Republic
of Germany, including though the former GDR</em>. But why this reduction
of language family to state territory? </big></p>
<p><big>Has the
Alsatian dialect changed from belonging the Upper German to the
French/Gallian/Roman family since belonging to France?<br></big></p>
<p><big>That
states, because of the influence of the main and official language and
of politics can change the further development of a minority language,
is selfevident. But because of that such a language variety does not
stop belonging to the language family it is from.<br></big></p>
<p><big>The
Wisconsin-Pommerian of the Old-Lutheran emigrants after 1817 (because
of the church unifying edict of king Friedrich Wilhelm III of "Prussia")
by changing the state had not <em>by this</em> stopped to speak their
Pommerian vernacular belonging to the Low German language family.
Westphalian Saxon has not changed its character to French during the
Napoleon rule (though loaning some terms from that time) and not changed
to a Prussian language thereafter.</big></p>
<p><big>Belong the official
languages and also the all-day languages of Belgium to another language
family than those of Netherlands? And further: have the Low Saxon
(nedersaksisch) idioms, as long as really spoken, on both sides of the
Germany border to Netherlands and Belgium changed there <em>language
family,</em> <strong><em>by this?</em></strong></big><big><br></big></p>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
And to add my personal opinion: Dutch and Saxon share several common
features
not shared by German. But I don't think, that there is much reason to
think of
it as a genetic unit that needs a name of its own. </span></p></blockquote>
<p><big>Do
you really think I were speaking of <em>ethnic</em> genealogy? That is
of historical interest, too. But is not identical with the <strong>cognation,
relatedness and genealogy of languages and tongues. I don't see how to
speek about the filiation, parentage, the <em>linguistic</em> relation
between the Low Germanic (+/- 500 p.C. not consonant shifted) languages
of Middle Dutch ≈ Middle Low German and there followers without a common
denomination. <br></strong></big></p>
<p><big>If not, it results
inevitably in very cryptic, complicated and incomprehensible
argumentations, of which the debates and contributions on this LL-List
is full of, too (as all the language science and language education
today). </big></p>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">It's just a common lack,
nothing that would be a base for a new Aldietse Beweging (C. J. Hansen's
Aldietse
Beweging actually was an Alnederdietse Beweging, <<a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldietse_Beweging" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldietse_Beweging</a>>).
</span></p></blockquote>
<p><big>Not about my topic, as far as I
understand quickly, it's aim had been another nation-stately order,
bringing together all regions where at that time (18./19. century) and
centuries before, the continantal variants of the Middle Netherlands ≈
Middle Low German follow-up varieties were at home. So <strong>not</strong>
(or only as part of the background) <strong>an engagement in linguistic
terminology,</strong> as the mine. But interesting, though. At least
the map provided there -</big> Â in big:<big> </big><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Aldietsterritorium.png" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Aldietsterritorium.png</a>
-<big> gives an idea of the regional spread of the language family I'm
seeking a name for, in Europe.</big></p>
<p><big>It's quite right, what
is commented on this wikipedia page:<br></big></p>
<p>»Het Aldietse
territorium is de eenheid van Frans-Vlaanderen, Vlaanderen, Nederland,
Noord-Duitsland, Noord-Polen met Oost-Pruisen. Dit territorium bestaat
in de realiteit niet enkel meer uit Nederduitse volkeren. Zo is
Frans-Vlaanderen verfranst en de Nederduitsers in Polen/Oost-Pruisen
zijn verdreven door Polen en Russen. De grens in Duitsland is de
Benrather linie, maar het Hoogduits heeft zodanig aan belang gewonnen
dat het gebruik van de Nederduitse taal sterk afnemende is.«<big><br></big></p>
<p><big>But
this had not made them stopped to belong to the same Low Landic / Low
German language family.</big></p>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The
genetic relation of Dutch and Saxon is not closer than the relation of
Saxon
and German.</span></p></blockquote>
<p><big>Again:</big><big><strong> My
topic is the linguistic relationship, not any ethnical. If you, beste
Marcus, with the above assertion/statement mean also strictly <em>l</em><em>inguistic</em>
closeness and distances between Dutch, Saxon an HiGerman, I would like
to hear some more arguments than those given before:</strong></big></p>
<p>»'diep'
instead of 'deep', 'boek' instead of 'book'. Then there are phonetic
adaptations like the switch from short 'u' to 'o' in words like
'grund'->'grond' or 'up'->'op', which is clearly Dutch-induced
(…).«<big><br></big></p>
<p><big>This kind of differences are much
smaller than those between various platdüüdske, Low German varieties
within the FRGermany. Though I admit, that with the verhaugdüüdsking /
HiGermanizing of the plat-tallen in Northern Germany, it's sometimes
difficult to see their differences to Standard HiGerman. The mixed,
hybrid, mesnish <em>mengelskürigge </em></big><big>might be funny and of
literary and linguistic interest, too. But not my field.</big></p>
<p><big>E.
g. in my perception the <em>(Low) Saxon</em> regional variety of <em>East
Westphalian</em> (i. e. my ancesters language) sounds at least not more
distant from Standard Netherlands than to coastal Low German variants.
And that's not allone my perception. Giving a probe of classic Osnabrügs
to my Berlin plat circle (of mostly Mecklenburg-Vorpommern people),
their reaction was, <u>that it sounded like Netherlands.</u><br></big></p>
<p><big>But
of course, in contrast to the terminology of 19th century - and the
example of dbnl - Digital Library of Netherland with L. & J. A.
Leopold's NEDERDUITSCHE DIALECTEN "VAN DE SCHELDE TOT DE WEICHSEL"-, <strong>if</strong>
really <strong>t</strong></big><big><strong>odays sensibility of
Netherlandish and Flemish speaking people does not allow to count them
to the Low German language family</strong>, I'm very glad to accept, as I
already indicated, the term <strong><em>"Lowlandic /Netherlandic /
Nidderlandisk / Nederlandesch (Languages)" as common name</em></strong>
for the Continental Low-Francish/Low Saxon language family, <em>if
Netherland people and Flemish don't object that.</em><br></big></p>
<p><big>Finally,
as a very last argument, 13.02.2010, 19:05 Uhr, Marcus Buck admitted:</big><br><br></p>
<blockquote style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 1ex;">I hereby admit, that I have a hard time
understanding Dutch Low Saxon, especially when spoken (so ruling out
orthography as the main reason). That somehow contradicts my expressed
belief, that Low Saxon is one language. But the fact, that my ability to
understand improves when the speaking person is older and if the
recording is older, indicates, that intensified Dutch influence makes
the language harder to understand. I guess prosody is involved in this
too.</blockquote>
<br>
<big>Could it be that it is you, to <em>overestimate</em>
- in the case of "Nedersaksisch" in Netherlands - the possible ethnical
background of the speakers concerned? Trying to enlarge the differences
of (continental) Saxon follow-up idioms to the Nether-Francish ones?
(Thereby overstressing the ethnical background of the Saxon language
family?). Whilst I see the fundamental bifurcation (junction) coming
from the Old High German consonant shift, and perceiving the Low
Francish follow-ups closer to the Saxon ones. On the other hand, today's
successors of this common language family are of course very
differenciated in regional idioms. <u>But without a special,
semifundamental bifurcation within this family between "Saxon" and "Low
Fracish" ones.</u></big><big><em><br></em></big>
<p><big>That's what I
meant with Low German (&Netherlandish) dialect continuum.</big><big><em><br></em></big></p>
<div>Met
echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</div>
<br>
joachim<br>
<small>--<br>Kreimer-de
Fries<br>Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</small><br>
<br>
•
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