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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===============================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 February 2010 - Volume 03<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
From: <span class="gd"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus
Buck</span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.17 (01)
[EN-NDS]</span><br>
<br>
Both Helge and Joachim quoted the sentence about the "genetic
relation" between Dutch and Saxon. I guess, using the word
"genetic" was calling for misunderstandings. I meant it in its
linguistic meaning (<<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_%28linguistics%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_%28linguistics%29</a>
</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">>).
I didn't mean to say anything about ethnicity, I only wanted to say, that the
closeness between Dutch and Saxon on the language family tree is about the same
as the closeness between German and Saxon or German and Dutch.<br>
<br>
From: Helge Tietz <<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com" target="_blank">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com" target="_blank">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Subject:
LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (04) [EN-NDS]<br>
<br>
Marcus, you wrote: "The genetic relation of Dutch and Saxon is not closer
than the relation of Saxon and German"<br>
<br>
I am not too certain about that. There a more common features between Northern
Germany and the Netherlands
than just linguistic ones. Take a look on rural settlements style and
traditional farm houses, the diet and folk songs and traditions. East of
Amersfoort you effectlively find the same traditional farm houses in style as
you do over the whole of Northern Germany up to Sleswick.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">East of
Amersfoort to me means Saxon. To me the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel line is the line
between Saxon and Dutch/Frankish.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I have been
living for more then 10 years now in the Netherlands as a Sleswig-Holsteener
and there is no doubt to me that culturally, linguistically and genetically the
Netherlands and Northern Germany are much closer linked to each other then to
Southern Germany and the national border between Northern Germany and the
Netherlands is an absolute artificial one.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I fully agree on that. I feel much more close to the Dutch
culture than to the Southern German one.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:soz-red@jpberlin.de" target="_blank">soz-red@jpberlin.de</a>>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Your postulate, beste Marcus, would end in calling US-, Canadian, Australian etc.
English *not "xy-English" but "United-Statish",
"Canadian", "Australian"* etc. - But what than with the
indegenous languages there?<br>
<br>
It would also end in *British English speakers to refuse having a
"Germanic" language *because there is another state of "Germany",
with which having had terrible experiences.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I didn't
postulate anything. I just meant to say, that I respect the wish of an
ethnical/cultural/linguistic/religious/whatever group to abandon a name.
The Dutch have it expressed this wish by stopping to refer to their language as
"Nederduits". But that doesn't mean that others should follow their
lead.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
On the other side, at least in German "Niederdeutsch"
already is<br>
an established term for anything not affected by the High German<br>
sound shift. So there actually is no reason to "search"
for a term.<br>
<br>
That has been the message of my post. Oh no, again this inevitable
misapprehending of your quoted phrase above. Of course, you think "Low
German /Niederdeutsch / Nederduits / Nidderdüüdsk / Nederdütsch" being
restricted to Low German language varieties /in the Federal Republic of
Germany, including though the former GDR/. But why this reduction of language
family to state territory? <br>
Has the Alsatian dialect changed from belonging the Upper German to the
French/Gallian/Roman family since belonging to France?<br>
<br>
That states, because of the influence of the main and official language and of
politics can change the further development of a minority language, is
selfevident. But because of that such a language variety does not stop
belonging to the language family it is from.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">That's
right. I never meant to suggest anything like that. I don't know what gave you
that impression.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Belong the official languages and also the all-day languages of Belgium to another language family than those of
Netherlands?
And further: have the Low Saxon (nedersaksisch) idioms, as long as really
spoken, on both sides of the Germany border to Netherlands and Belgium changed
there /language family,/ */by this?/*</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Absolutely
not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Finally, as a very last argument, 13.02.2010, 19:05 Uhr, Marcus Buck admitted:<br>
<br>
I hereby admit, that I have a hard time understanding Dutch Low<br>
Saxon, especially when spoken (so ruling out orthography as the<br>
main reason). That somehow contradicts my expressed belief, that<br>
Low Saxon is one language. But the fact, that my ability to<br>
understand improves when the speaking person is older and if the<br>
recording is older, indicates, that intensified Dutch influence<br>
makes the language harder to understand. I guess prosody is<br>
involved in this too.<br>
<br>
Could it be that it is you, to /overestimate/ - in the case of
"Nedersaksisch" in Netherlands
- the possible ethnical background of the speakers concerned? Trying to enlarge
the differences of (continental) Saxon follow-up idioms to the Nether-Francish
ones? (Thereby overstressing the ethnical background of the Saxon language
family?). Whilst I see the fundamental bifurcation (junction) coming from the
Old High German consonant shift, and perceiving the Low Francish follow-ups
closer to the Saxon ones. On the other hand, today's successors of this common
language family are of course very differenciated in regional idioms. _But
without a special, semifundamental bifurcation within this family between
"Saxon" and "Low Fracish" ones._/<br>
/</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">That's what I meant with Low German (&Netherlandish)
dialect continuum./<br>
/</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I can
understand the Saxon dialects of the German border regions (if the speaker
speaks at a pace not too hasty and doesn't use too much contractions). I can
understand some speakers from the Dutch Low Saxon regions. But many Dutch Low
Saxon speakers I cannot understand. Supposedly due to differences in the
language that are induced by the Dutch standard language.<br>
I don't know whether I would understand speakers of the Low Frankish dialects
cause I heard too few so far.<br>
<br>
I cannot tell whether I over- or underestimate the relevance of the
Germanic tribes for todays language landscape. But facts suggest that I have to
estimate them. The southern border of the Low Saxon language in Hesse is
very sharp and its almost identical to the former border between Franks and
Saxons. The language border between Westfalia and the Rhineland too is clearly
trackable in isogloss maps and corresponds with the Franko-Saxon border. In the
west cities like Nijmegen and Utrecht are known to be Frankish in old times
while the Twente region is known to be Saxon in old times. And again there are
many isoglosses that run between them. I have absolutely no doubts that
"Franks vs Saxons" is relevant for todays dialects. Of course there
are many lingustic innovations that crossed the border. It's not like the
dialects on both sides of the former Franko-Saxon border are totally different.
They are quite similar due to common innovations. But a bifurcation is present.
Einheitsplural is the most prominent Saxon feature and the isogloss for
Einheitsplural runs along the bifurcation line, the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel line. The
isogloss for reduced past participle (Dutch 'ge-' vs Low Saxon 'e-' or '-')
runs along the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel. Umlaut in the word Frankish hoovd vs Low
Saxon heuvd does too. The isogloss for Frankish krijgt vs Low Saxon kriggt runs
along the Veluwe-IJssel line. And many other isoglosses do.<br>
<br>
The isogloss bundle is not as important as the one between Low Saxon and German
in Hesse, but it clearly is a relevant dividing line.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
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