<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===============================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 February 2010 - Volume 08<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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===============================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="ik"></span><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (06) [DE-EN]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
From: Joachim
<<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com" target="_blank">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
</div><blockquote style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="cite"><br>
<div class="im">
<div>
<div>Has anybody
knowledge of such
early import/colonization of flemish (or french or italian) territories
by Saxon, caused by Charlemagne's deportation?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It interests me
in the context of the controversiale issue of "Saxon-LowFranconian
dialect continuum".</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The source is this sentence in the Vita Karoli Magni by Einhard:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"Nam numquam eos huiuscemodi aliquid perpetrantes inpune ferre passus
est, quin aut ipse per se ducto aut per comites suos misso exercitu
perfidiam ulcisceretur et dignam ab eis poenam exigeret, usque dum,
omnibus qui resistere solebant profligatis et in suam potestatem
redactis, decem milia hominum ex his qui utrasque ripas Albis fluminis
incolebant cum uxoribus et parvulis sublatos transtulit et huc atque
illuc per Galliam et Germaniam multimoda divisione distribuit."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In English (source:
</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html#Saxon%20War" target="_blank"><http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/einhard.html#Saxon%20War></a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">):</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"</span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><big>on the contrary, he never allowed their faithless
behavior to go unpunished, but either took the field against them in
person, or sent his counts with an army to wreak vengeance and exact
righteous satisfaction. At last, after conquering and subduing all who
had offered resistance, he took ten thousand of those that lived on the
banks of the Elbe, and settled them, with their wives and children, in
many different bodies here and there in Gaul and Germany."<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</big></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "History"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Beste Marcus en Joachim,</span><div><br><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Marcus wrote:</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (06) [DE-EN]<br><br></span><div>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Joachim
<<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com" target="_blank">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
LL-L "History" 2010.02.23 (05) [EN, DE]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Colonies of
Charlemagne's deported Saxon families in Flanders & ?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi again,
Lowlanders,</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-size: 17px;">Am 22.02.2010, 20:49, hadde ik scriewen:</div>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style="font-size: 17px;">Am 22.02.2010 ümme 00:02 scraif Luc
Hellinckx:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-size: 17px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Beste
Joachim, You wrote:
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 13px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 17px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 13px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 21px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 15px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div><span style="font-size: 13px;">
<div style="margin: 0px;">Osnabrügge (a place where Widukint is
still alive) => Berlin-Pankow</div>
</span></div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
<div style="font-size: 17px;">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 17px;">oops, it was a spontaneous addition
to my regular footer here …</div>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
By
doing some search for this post, I came to a website which' political
and historical seriousness I cannot judge and have no time to explore.
But there's an assertion in, for which I would be interested to have
affirmations or disproof about, if someone knows somewhat about this. On</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.deutschland-im-mittelalter.de/karl-krieg-sachsen.php" target="_blank">http://www.deutschland-im-mittelalter.de/karl-krieg-sachsen.php</a></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">is written:</div>
<div style="font-family: georgia,serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: georgia,serif;"><p style="margin: 0px 0px 14px; text-align: justify;" align="justify"><font style="font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; color: rgb(11, 0, 0);" color="#0b0000" size="4">Wittekind
ließ sich hierauf taufen, und viele tausend Sachsen folgten seinem
Beispiel freiwillig. Viele tausend andere wurden heerdenweise mit dem
Schwerte in die Flüsse getrieben, und empfingen eine wahre Nottaufe.
Dies geschah im Jahre 786. Aber erst 18 Jahre darauf, im Jahre 804,
wurde es in dem Lande ganz ruhig, denn noch immer machten die
heidnischen Sachsen dem König der Franken viel zu schaffen. Um sie
leichter in Gehorsam zu erhalten, <b>ließ Karl 10,000 sächsische
Familien nach Flandern, Frankreich und Italien versetzen, wodurch eine
Menge deutscher Kolonien in diesen Ländern entstanden.</b> In Sachsen
legte er Burgen und Bischofssitze an, aus denen nach und nach Städte
wurden, wie Magdeburg, Halle, Bremen, Münster und Osnabrück.
(Accentuation by me)</font></p>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Has anybody
knowledge of such
early import/colonization of flemish (or french or italian) territories
by Saxon, caused by Charlemagne's deportation?</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It interests me
in the context of the controversiale issue of "Saxon-LowFranconian
dialect continuum".</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I have heard about this claim too. Until now I have not come across
actual evidence that this is true. But it could be true anyways. If it
is true, I guess, we shouldn't speak about "colonies". Rather single
settlements in otherwise non-Saxon regions. Charlemagne wanted to
render the Saxons innocuous so he had no interest to create compact
Saxon settlement areas. I guess the single Saxon settlements were quite
quickly assimilated.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The
Belgian and (Northern) French coast had already been settled by Saxons
earlier on (litus Saxonicum back in the Roman days), so it may have
been a smooth transition for the deported Saxons. Guess they were still
able to use their native language while communicating with locals.</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In a way, later on they may have (been) "reshipped" to Great-Britain. Read more about it here:</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/11449194/The-Flemings-Flemish-Migrations-and-Influence-2" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/11449194/The-Flemings-Flemish-Migrations-and-Influence-2</a></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">How
"Flemish" were sort of the Chinese of their day (arriving in huge
numbers...sometimes outnumbering local communities...working for the
lowest salaries)...at the same time, not only boosting trade but
apparently also often becoming prostitutes (in London).</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Manchester
received its first batch of Flemish weavers around the 14th century.
More importantly, there was a second influx, three centuries
later...quote:</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: medium none ; margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 40px; padding: 0px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i>It is highly probable that cotton weaving was also started by these refugees. This had been a <br>
flourishing industry at Antwerp, a port where the necessary materials were easily procurable from <br>Egypt. The beginnings in England are very obscure; but it is significant that it began to attract <br>attention as an important trade in Manchester in the early part of the 17th century and that the rise <br>
of the manufacture in Lancashire appears to follow very closely on its decline at Antwerp. There is <br>at least the considerable possibility of ascribing the development to the immigration of refugees. <br>After the sack of Antwerp in 1585 we know that many of the inhabitants fled to England, and the <br>
same period marks a great growth in the population of Manchester.</i></blockquote><blockquote style="border: medium none ; margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 40px; padding: 0px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i><br></i></blockquote>
<i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><div>I
know there's all kinds of reasons that have triggered the Industrial
Revolution. According to the author, migration could be just another
one!</div><div><br></div>Kind greetings,</span></i><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><div><i><span style="font-style: normal;">Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</span></i></div>
</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: History</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Not to forget many Flemings (perhaps many of them of Saxon descent) having participated, along with Saxons, Dutchmen, Germans, etc., in the eastward colonization of primarily Slavic and Baltic lands (in what are now Eastern Germany, Northern Poland, Kaliningrad and the Baltic Countries), beginning in earnest in the 11th and 12th centuries. Later there were even pockets of Scottish immigrants among them, some perhaps also partly of Flemish descent.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The mostly Scottish and Northern English surname Fleming tells an obvious story. A less obvious one goes with surnames like Welsh, Wells and Walsh that stuck to many British people of Flemish descent who first migrated to Wales and came to be considered Welsh upon arrival in England and Scotland.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br>
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