<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">===============================================<br><b>L O W L A N D S - L - 14 March 2010 - Volume 03</b><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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===============================================<br></font></div><font size="2"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2010.03.15 (04) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hey guys, </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'm currently working on a Ludwig Holberg project and he quotes a lot of
Middle Low German authors which rose a lot of questions! And where else
to come with those but here;) I found it very interesting to read
those, as they are so recognisable even for a Belgian like me, and to
see they even differ less from Dutch than modern Low Saxon. </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
He quotes a poem by a crazy religious woman from around Hamborg (or
rather the 'Eiderstædiske' region around Slesvig Holstein) called Anna
Ovena Høier: </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span>Dit heft juw gesecht </span></em></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span>De truw GOttes Knecht, </span></em></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span>Den gy verdömen: </span></em></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span>Siin liif ist verbrandt, <br>Siin
Seel in GOttes handt, </span></em></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span>Ik darf em nicht nömen.</span></em></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><em><span></span></em> </font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>I checked some books on
modern Low German dialects and the questions that arose were those: </span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>3rd singular 'heft'
meaning "has" looked really Dutch to me, and I didnt see any similar
form in those modern LG dialect books, is such a form still alive
somewhere in northern Saxon? Also Juw instead of Juk, I thought the
forms without -k were more southern while mik, dik and juk would be
expected more northern Low German in this region. </span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>Also Dutch looked the
form 'gy' for 2nd plural, isnt modern Low Saxon 'ji' with the original
-j? It would seem strange to go from Germanic ji to gi back to ji. I
thought gi-forms were Franconian (at least in Dutch they are
southern/franconian, whereas more saxon-frisian influenced dialects have
ji-forms.) </span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>verdömen shows
einheitspluralis in -en, rather than -t which I would expect in that
region, or did I mix up both? </span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>Also "Gottes" genitive of
'god' looks High German to me, right? Is there still a -d-form used in
Low German? </span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span></span> </font></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>And from the city of
Hamborg: </span></font></p><font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt;" class="MsoNormal"><em><span>Dorchluchtigster, Gro</span><span>ß</span></em><em><span>mächtigster Herr König,
Durchluchtiger Hochgeborner Først tho Holsten, gnädigst und gnädige
Herren! Nachdem Ju Königl. Majestät und Förstl. Gnade tho Holsten dorch
den Willen Godes des Almägtigen in disse gude Stad gekommen sind, so
erschienen wy Börgermester und Rath, samt dem uthschote der gemeinen
Börgerschafft, und bekennen, uns, tho wesen de gledematen des
Förstenthum Holsten und Stormarn, und willen uns by Ju Königl. Mayst.
und Förstl. Gnaden als Försten tho Holsteen und Stormarn holden in allen
gehörlichen Sachen, wo fromen Lüden by öhren natürlichen gebohrnen
Lands-Försten und Herren tho dohnde geböhrt, und unser Forfahren
alletydt geholden hebben. By also dat wy by unsern Privilegien,
Gerechtigkeiten und olden geböhrlichen Gewohnheiden bliwen und gelaten
werden. Wo nun Ju Königl. Mayst. und Førstl. Gnaden uns gnädigst und
gnädig Willen annehmen, und unsere Privilegien, Gerechtigkeiten und olde
redlichen Gewohnheiten confirmiren, holden und handhaven uns ock
gehlich ander Ju Königl. Mayst. und Førstl. Gnaden undersaten tho recht
vorbidden und vordedigen. </span></em></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span>Tho clearly Low and not
High German, these seem High-German to me: <strong>DURCH</strong>luchtiger
(cfr earlier DORCH with O), -heiten and -keiten with T (altho one time
with D), saCHen, groSZmächtigster, gehliCH (=gleich? then the vowel
would be LS and the consonant HG), natürLICHEN, redLICHEN</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span>Would those "High German"
consonants be influence of an early HG written language influence, or
would they actually already be spreading into urban LS speech in those
times? We're talking late 1500's here. especially in suffixes like -lich
and -heit they seem to occur (and formal words like 'sachen') so that
would rather be a written language-influence or is that a wrong
assumption? </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span>Is nachdem a LS word or
would that be HG written language? "Nun" also seems HG to me or is it a
LS word as well? Is the Suffix -schaft (börgerschafft) also LS or does
LS have -schap like Dutch? </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span>The use of ø seems Danish
to me, or would that have been in use among LS writers as well?</span></p></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> I know I ask a lot of questions, and don't expect all of them will be
answered but if anyone can give any imput on these matters, or sees
other interesting things he wants to share those would be much
appreciated! </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Cheers! </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Diederik, Bergen (Norway) </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>From: R. F.
Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span>Subject:
Grammar</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span><br>Hey, Diederik!<br><br>I'll let others respond in detail first.<br><br>In the meantime, however, I can assure you that the prose text is most definitely a mixture of Low Saxon and German. It appears to be Early Modern German, probably at a time when German was becoming the prestige language in the north.<br>
<br>Are you sure this prose text is from the then Hamburg? Might it be from Altona (now a part of Hamburg) or some other then separate place in Holstein under what was essentially Danish power ("king" referring to the Danish king, which would also explain the use of "</span><span><span>ø"</span></span><span>)?<br>
<br>Do you have any dates that go with the texts?<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br></span></font></p>
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