<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">===============================================<br><b>L O W L A N D S - L - 18 March 2010 - Volume 05</b><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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===============================================<br></font></div><font size="2"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Leslie Decker</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:leslie@familydecker.org">leslie@familydecker.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.17 (08) [EN-NL]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I love that poem! Here is a picture of it as it's painted on the wall
in Leiden: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.muurgedichten.nl/min.html" target="_blank">http://www.muurgedichten.nl/min.html</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888" size="2"><br>Leslie Decker</font><font size="2"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">M.-L. Lessing</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.17 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>
</span></font><div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Dear John, </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">it is painful to read about
the
ignorance and stupidity of most Shetland people, but what is that to
you?!
If these people are so lost as to cut their own tongue out of their
mouthes, why
in the world should *you* take your website offline?! It is painful to
see the
state of the language, but it is another pain to see how these
fools seem
to hurt you. There is no reason they should! They scarcely deserve your
pity. To me a language lives in itself, even without an audience. If you
love
it, that's enough. It lives in you. And in nature, which has heard the
sounds of
this language for ages. It understands you, it answers in your tongue.
So you
speak it. And if there be just four or five others on the Shetland
islands that
think alike, why not keep your website up for them? And if there aren't,
who
cares? I for one honour your stand, and I am sure so do all LL-L
members. We
have a saying in german, "Was schert es die Eiche, wenn sich die Sau an
ihr
scheuert", that is "The oak doesn't care if the pig scrapes itself
against it."
(Alternative form: "Was schert es den Mond, wenn die Hunde ihn
anbellen",
meaning "The moon doesn't bother if the dogs bark at it.") You are the
oak. Hey,
didn't you know that? You are the oak, not the pig. Anything else is
ridiculous.
These people matter not a whit. I would ignore their comments by
hundreds quite
easily, and if they forced them on me that would make me ever so much
more
stubborn, and relishing it. John, you *are* not alone. With a beautiful
language nobody is ever alone. And then there are so many people in the
world
who back your issue. Seeing your fight makes me even more waterproof
against all adversities about *my* language. That's thanks to
you.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">So, bear up! I really can't
say how
proud you should be of yourself!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Hartlich!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Marlou</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4"> </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">P.S. Thinking of more sayings
in that
direction, there is of course the old pirate motto "Viel Feind, viel
Ehr" or, as
Oliver Kahn once put it: "Alle sind gegen uns. Es kann nichts Schöneres
geben."
("Everybody hates us. Nothing can be finer.") (That was when his club
Bayern
München had an away match and was booed at, I think. But of course
everybody is
against Bayern München always :-))</font></div><font size="2"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.17 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> From: jmtait <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</font>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><font size="2">> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.16 (07)
[AF-EN]<br><br></font>
</div><font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> I don't know if anyone picked up on the sarcasm. However, as
you will</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> appreciate, it's not easy to say or write "The Shetland Dialect"
every</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> time you refer to something, so it tends to be reduced to
'dialect.'</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> So referring to it as Shetland Dialect on Lowlands-L would be OK,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> although use of it to translate expository text in the introduction
to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Lowlands-L would not, this being outside of the acceptable pericope
of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> dialect</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Here in the deep south (Somerset, England), I usually _start_ by</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
referring to Scots as "Scots dialect", which is the only way of making</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
it clear to the English that I don't mean Gaelic. Once a person knows</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
what I'm talking about, I can drop the "dialect" and just say "Scots".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Of course, the English have no problem with the idea of Scots as a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
language if you want to say that it is. It's only in Scotland that you'd</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
have to argue the point.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I guess if "Shetlandic" is causing problems, you can always just stick</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
with "Shetlandic dialect" until the New Shetlandic Enlightenment.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Is it possible that the loss of the "th" sounds in Shetlandic cause</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
non-linguists to see it as degenerate speech, the "th" being difficult</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
for most non-English speakers to pronounce, and therefore seemingly more</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"sophisticated"? Hence people being easily persuaded that it's "only" a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dialect?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As an aside, I believe there are some traditional English dialects with</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
this feature. Doesn't the traditional dialect of Sheffield have "d" and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"t" in place of the "th" sounds? And of course you could imagine many</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
people seeing this as a reason to avoid it, since the stuff they speak</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in school seems inherently better.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Then again, the "th" is being lost all over England in a different way</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
("th" > "v"/"f"), though not outside of England, and there's a
reverse</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
process where many English people see the new forms as inferior and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
attempt to resist them.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888" size="2"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></font><font size="2"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br>----------<br>
<br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="ik"></span><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">jmtait</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.17 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Michael Wrote (I've put your comments and those from my previous post in
italics, Michael, because I'm having difficulty excluding truant codes
from my posts.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Michael Everson <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:everson@evertype.com" target="_blank">everson@evertype.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.15 (06) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The speech variety exists whether or not it has a name. And like all
speech varieties it has its own grammar, which may be the same or differ
from other related languages.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Yes - it exists in actuality. But that isn't the same as saying that it
exists in public perception - as the comments of the well-known Scottish
broadcaster illustrate. I would say that Shetlanders feel viscerally
that it exists, but their social heritage prevents them from giving
shape to it either in their minds or in nomenclature. Also, in spite of
there having been a 'Grammar and Usage of the Shetland Dialect' since
the 1950s, even active dialect promoters may write it with straight
English grammar, which implies that it is not perceived as having any
grammar of its own.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
To put it less dramatically, my comment that it 'does not exist' is a
form of hyperbole, referring to the fact that, under the present social
situation and nomenclature, it can be treated by Shetland society as a
whole almost as if it didn't exist.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Seems to me that the apprehension of Shetlanders on this matter may be
something that a bit of education could expand.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Where from and by whom? ShetlandForWirds - the ones who are interested
in 'dialect' in Shetland - is already promoting 'dialect' per se. That
is presumably education, but it doesn't address any of these issues.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The well-known Sottish broadcaster obviously knows little about
linguistics. He could do worse even than looking at this stub: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetlandic" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetlandic</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, as we all know, Wikipedia is an amateur effort - probably the
writer was a politically inspired purist or prescriptionist who can be
safely ignored! :) (It wasn't me, BTW! - actually the phonetic section
is not very accurate - or, should I say, the phoneme inventory is
different from mine - and I've often wondered who did write it.)
Certainly if my 'Shetlandic' introduction to the UHI course can be cited
by the county Archivist as an 'abortion' (as I keep repeating ad
nauseam) Wikipedia isn't going to cut any ice!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In any case linguistics wouldn't necessarily be perceived as being
relevant to 'dialect' - another of the subtle tricks that use of the
term can generate - and knowledge in general would be contra-indicated,
being an example of the attempt to force the varying forms into a set
form - etc, etc. By definition, anyone who writes down, in phonetic
script the pronunciation of a varying form of speech which has no
consistent pronunciation must be doing so for political motives. (And,
in case anyone thinks these are my opinions - like the public figures
who quote Robert Frost's comment that 'fences make good neighbours' as
if he meant it - yes, I am being sarcastic!)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I went to Shetlink, though, and I find </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31" target="_blank">http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
this forum which doesn't suggest to me that the myth is completely
widespread.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Are you sure that you aren't reading my own comments?! (My username is
DePooperit.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Because of comments such as these - and in case it was my website
which misled the flatmate in question - I have not only stopped using
the term, but have removed my website with this - and all its other -
offensive content.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'm horrified. I've spent so many years working to help smaller
linguistic communities, that to hear you say that you're ...
capitulating to ignorance makes me want to weep.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As I say, I don't see any point in persisting. SFW, which grew out of
the dialect conference, went more or less the opposite way to my views..
They would still like me to keep up my website - but it was months
after it came down before one of them noticed, and in any case, that
would just make me the token purist and ready-made bad example in a
situation dominated by anti-purist Edinburgh proponents of Scots. In its
nomenclature, approach to spelling and grammar, expository use of the
medium, etc, the website represented a failed experiment. Almost all the
queries I received were from overseas - usually Scandinavia (I can
recollect receiving only one or two from Shetland) and I got tired of
giving a lengthy explanation to each inquirer of why they should ignore
most of the things I said, particularly if they intended to visit
Shetland. If I have to make constant apologies for the material on the
website, it's better not there.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> The term dialect has also taken over substantially in speech from
the native term Shaetlan. Interestingly, at a dialect conference I
attended in 2004, the only speaker I can recollect using the term
Shaetlan, apart from myself, was a young incomer from England who had
learned to speak it very well. She had obviously picked up the term as
used by native speakers, and had not picked up on the fact that it was
now (apparently) politically incorrect to refer to it as anything other
than dialect. I have even heard people say Sh-dialect - ie, starting to
say Shaetlan and then altering to dialect in mid-word.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Education!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Again, where from? At Dialect '04, in addition to the above incomer,
there was myself, and another young Shetlander who had grown up in
Africa (notice that there were no young Shetlanders who had grown up in
Shetland), all of whom recommended a 'bilingual' and more formal
approach, and a Faroese professor who explained carefully how
orthography in Faroe could represent the pronunciations of the various
dialects while providing a unified written form. My own paper - on my
former website - was entitled 'Shaetlan is Daed - Lang Live Dialect,'
and tackled exactly the problem I am dealing with head-on.
ShetlandForWirds, which grew out of this conference, paid no attention
to any of these.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> With regard to the general apprehension of dialect as a written
medium, the following comments were made by a well-known public figure
(native dialect speaker and PhD in a literary subject) recently in the
Shetland Times, with regard to why Shetland has never produced a
prominent novelist (Orkney has produced two, and one prominent poet.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> And it is not really suitable for writing, the Shetland
dialect....writers in dialect irritate. X can make it readable, by some
magic, but most add unjustifiable emphasis and archaisms, and in any
case, English is our written tongue, the one we are trained to read.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
.....</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But surely something can be done to improve the situation. Surely --
something must be done.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I don't think anyone thinks anything must be done. I actually e-mailed a
dialect promoter about this, and her reply was that the writer was just
being provocative, not to take him seriously, and that she hadn't even
thought about replying to him. I said that not taking him seriously was
actually taking him seriously, but I don't think I was understood.
Obviously the intention is to avoid controversy. At one time I might
have written in myself, but I reason that if no-one in Shetland takes
issue, there's not any point in my doing so.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> This illustrates the value of the unqualified term dialect to the
mouthpieces of the prevailing Anglophone hegemony. Because it is dialect
and not language it can be exempted from all the characteristics of
language. Not only does it have no grammar, but if a writer in it is
found to be irritating, this is attributed to the medium rather than the
writer, because dialect is per se unsuitable for writing. And if
someone is found who does not irritate, then, as this cannot be
attributed to competence because written competence in a medium which is
not suitable for writing would be a contradiction in terms, it must be
attributed to magic.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Now, I **really** want to ask you if you or someone you know would
consider a version of Alice....</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Because of the magic reference? :)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, certainly not me. I've actually been protecting my blood pressure
for several years by staying well away from the subject. I've only come
out of the closet in the last week or two after inadvertently reading
the article about whatsitsname being unwriteable in the Shetland Times -
which I only picked up because I was visiting my mother, who lives near
me on the Scottish Mainland. In another week or so I'll have repeated
myself about six - maybe ten - times, here and on Shetlink, and will
hopefully go back into limbo for at least another few years.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> As, then, the terms Shetlandic and Shaetlan are offensive to the
perception of Shetland society, as reflected in the unchallenged
comments of its intelligentsia, I take the view that these terms, and
the offensive concepts they embody, can fairly be said not to exist.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I wouldn't agree. Its intelligentsia need to be challenged.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Again, by whom? As I have already pointed out, even those who are
actually interested in promoting the tongue either agree with these
comments, or at least are prepared to conform to them to the extent of
not using any term other than 'The Shetland Dialect' reduced in actual
use to 'dialect' and not challenging them when they appear in print. The
archivist who cited my writing as an 'abortion' and the broadcaster who
objects to 'Shetlandic' because it is trying to make a 'set form' of
something which is 'varying' would regard themselves as pro-dialect.
This is why they bother even to write about it. The guy who says it is
unwriteable just mentioned it in passing in an article which was
actually about literature. There are others who are anti, and still more
- probably a vast majority - who don't care.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Also, at least some of the older speakers either would like to see the
dialect die out (the idea that this will help children's education is
still prominent) or at the opposite end have a mythological belief in
its Norse origins (it has Norse origins up to a point, but many of the
features that are thought to be Norse are actually older Scots,
identified as Norse by people who see only that they are not standard
English.) Dialect promoters tend to be literary-minded and susceptible
to the anti-purist views of the Edinburgh literati, while practical
people tend not to be interested in the subject at all.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> However, I made this off the cuff and deliberately have not offered
it to Lowlands-L for the same reason that I have removed my website. As
an expatriate Shetlander, I have no right to misrepresent the views of
resident (or other) Shetlanders by presenting material on the internet
which appears to give dialect written status, and which Shetland society
as a whole is therefore likely to find offensive.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'm sorry, and hope I do not offend... but I have to criticize this
approach. Ex-patriate or not, if you love the language, haven't you a
right AND duty to help dispel the myth? No "intelligentsia" has the
right to tell people that their dialect/language/speech-form ought not
to be written. I'm going to spend some more time reading that ShetLink
forum, but already just in the thread titles I see the word "Shetlandic"
appear alongside other forms, and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Again - are you sure the word 'Shetlandic' isn't in my posts
(DePooperit) or those of 'ex-isle', an expatriate Shetland writer who no
longer posts to Shetlink (actually I don't either - I've just slipped
temporarily off the wagon...)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I should explain here that the view that dialect should not be written
is not universal. The fact that this writer mentioned it at all shows
that there is enough of it about to irritate him. In fact, the recent
250th edition of the New Shetlander has many poems (including one by
myself, which is why I have a copy - I stopped subscribing because I
found it too depressing) and several long stories entirely in dialect (I
am adopting the 'dialect' nomenclature for the sake of argument here.)
By the standards of many, perhaps any, other part of the UK, this must
seem like a very good record, and I am sure that dialect promoters in
Shetland would cite it as such. I'm sure that if you had been introduced
to the situation by one of the dialect promoters and been shown all the
material which they are diligently working on, rather than via my jaded
and jaundiced viewpoint, you would have come away with the impression
that the Shetland situation was very encouraging.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There are also several dictionary projects - one being an
English-Shetland dictionary compiled by Derrick Herning, at one time the
Polyglot of Europe, one that I don't know anything about, and another
that appears to have been compiled from a wiki-style online dictionary -
the idea of which is apparently to include as many regional variants as
possible (I would imagine without reference and spelt anyhow, although I
don't know) in reaction against the SFW, who are seen as being too
rigid in their approach.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
However, my argument would be that this apparently healthy situation is
largely an illusion. The dictionary projects show the traditional
perception of dialect as consisting only of vocabulary. The writers are
not many, they are mostly late middle aged as far as I know, spelling is
haphazard (again, only relatively - some would say that it is
remarkably uniform, but that depends on perspective); grammar is also
haphazard, tending, in the absence of any frame of reference other than
the vagaries of 'dialect' to approach closer to standard English (and
thus, in my mind, to being stilted - although as a linguistic
abortionist I am obviously not qualified to say) the further it strays
from traditional dialect topics. There is no truck with dialect as an
expository medium in the New Shetlander (co-edited by the archivist who
described my attempts to write it in an expository context as an
'abortion' - I think that's the second time I've mentioned that in this
paragraph!), and in the Shetland Times it appears only in cartoons, etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In short, where the dialect promoters are optimistic, I see the speech
confined by society to such a limited, specialised and minority-interest
area that it can only be expected to suffocate. The dialect approach
may appeal to primary school kids up to a point - though very few of
those speak it now, so it would presumably only be a sort of game - but I
can't see teenagers being enthusiastic about speaking something with
connotations of straw growing out of ears and sucking milk directly from
cow's udders - especially considering that many Shetland kids nowadays
may never have seen either straw or a cow.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Another question is whether some of the extant dialect writing may
actually be irritating. I obviously don't want to push this or give
examples, but a medium with little reference for spelling or grammar,
which oscillates between traditional and standard English syntax, and
which is not allowed to stretch its legs into non-abortive areas, is
unlikely ever to develop as a written medium or be easily or fluently
written or read.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>As the owner of a former website using the jarringly jargonistic
term Shetlandic, and contained irritating writing in that unwriteable
medium including unworkable translation from Greek and the odd abortion
here and there, I have taken the hint.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(snip)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
as a minority language activist for nearly two decades I just have to
say that your current approach is, in my view, not the right one.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, I've got to think of my blood pressure and mental health! But my
current approach comes at the end of a long stint - it's not as if I
haven't tried everything else I can think of!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Also, of course, I could be completely wrong. Perhaps my approach was
the wrong one all along. Perhaps the youth of Shetland will be so
enthused by the presentation of dialect at primary level that they will
all grow up speaking it, and thus the oral demise (which is what people
are worried about) will be stemmed without resort to any embarrassing,
politically motivated and objectionable measures such as policy,
spelling, protesting about the non-dialect policy of the commercial
radio station, or actually using it as a written medium outside of
traditional dialect areas such as poetry and short stories.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
To get more of the background, on Shetlink, you might be interested in
looking at the recent thread, The Importance of Norn in Shetland Today
(or some such) where I repeat myself several times! The thread Using
Dialect on the Forums (or such) would also be interesting as a gauge of
attitudes. That thread was originally part of a thread about pet hate,
room 101 things - the thread still exists, but the dialect issue was
transferred to the specialist dialect forum.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ron wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As you alluded to, Michael, it is quite common for people to refer to
minority languages in terms of patois, idioma, Mundart, "dialect", and
so forth. In most cases this requires no qualification when the ethnic
and geographical context is clear. So, for instance, when people that
live in or come from Southern France refer to patois it is usually
implied that they are talking about Occitan and not to, say, Alsatian,
Gallo, Norman or Breton. However, when they talk to outsiders they will
specify it at least in terms of locality, even if they do not use the
name Occitan. Similarly, people in, say, Drenthe, The Netherlands, might
refer to Drenthe Low Saxon as dialect when the context is clear.
Outside the context they are likely to specify by town (e.g.
Hoogeveens), if not more general Drents, even if they do not use the
name Nedersaksisch (or don't have any concept of the language as a
whole).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
That's exactly the situation in Shetland at the moment. However, I don't
think this is necessarily the traditional situation. Traditionally, as I
say, the native term was 'Shaetlan' - as in 'spaekin Shaetlan' - and it
seems to have been largely replaced by 'dialect', particularly perhaps
in the speech of those who are engaged in its promotion, or more
white-collar people generally.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
When I started to write about the subject - perhaps fifteen to twenty
years ago - it seemed to me that 'Shetlandic' was a natural translation
of 'Shaetlan' into English, and it was often used not only in the New
Shetlander, but by Scottish linguists and generally by Scots language
activists when they were speaking about the Shetland tongue. I started
to use it first for convenience (other terms being laborious or awkward)
and because I imagined at that time that it was increasing in use.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
However, with the retiral of the late John Graham, the editorship of the
New Shetlander fell into other hands - first someone who tried to
emphasise it as a literary magazine and whose principle influence was
Tom Leonard, and now the archivist who described my 'ta lay up a
university' as an 'abortion' (how many times have I mentioned that
now?). Both would be uninterested in, if not opposed to, the use of
'dialect' as an expository medium - the second one cut short a series by
me written in 'dialect' about orthography, which would be regarded as a
no-go area by that school of thought - and I would imagine that
decreasing use of the term 'Shetlandic' might go along with this
perception. So since I started to write on the subject I would say that
the tide has turned from the slightly more assertive view of Graham to a
view more in conformity with mainstream Scottish literary and adacemic
thought (and moreover in the relativistic postmodern rather than the
functionalist modernist era.) Whereas if the term 'Shetlandic' had been
used increasingly in print it might have grown more familiar I think it
has probably been used decreasingly, which might be one reason why it
has never gained favour among the general population.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As I haven't been in Shetland for a long time, I'll have to inquire
whether the Dunna Chuck Bruck signs - which at the time I took as a sign
of increasing use of the written form in public - have vanished.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The question is if people in Shetland have thought things through. If
they prefer to call Shetlandic "dialect" within a back-home context,
what do they call it when talking to outsiders outside the Islands? It
seems to me that some sort of specification would be in order, such as
"dialect of Shetland" or "Shetland dialect". If I didn't know someone
came from the Shetland Islands and I asked him, "What do you speak with
your family?", then just "dialect" wouldn't do</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
'Dialect' might well do. I have heard Patrick Stewart - Star Trek -
commenting that before he went to drama school and became elocuted, he
spoke 'not just accent but 'dialect'. I get the impression that
'dialect' can be used in a way what doesn't require qualification
because it refers to a sub-language of what you are speaking at the
time. In other words, if you asked someone what they spoke at they said
'dialect' this would mean 'a dialect of English.'</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
. Or is it more likely that he answers "English," considering Shetland
dialect a sub-category of English, and also considering the specifics
not my business?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well, only because an increasing number of Shetlanders do now speak
standard English.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Which bets the second question: Is Shetlandic being made into some sort
of lingua specialis, a secret type of language?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
If I follow you - only insofar as young people may not understand what
older people say, which would be the case for any speech form that is
dying out. It's a long time since grandparents started to complain that
their grandchildren couldn't understand them. However, if I make it into
a conlang with Welsh spelling and copious neologisms, it will be an
idiolect, understood only by me!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I reckon there's a PhD in all this for someone somewhere!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
John M. Tait.</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><br></span><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span>Subject: Language varieties<br><br>John, *</span></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="2"><br>You wrote above:<br></font></p><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Yes
- it exists in actuality. But that isn't the same as saying that it
exists in public perception<br>....<br></font><font size="2">To
put it less dramatically, my comment that it 'does not exist' is a
form of hyperbole, referring to the fact that, under the present social
situation and nomenclature, it can be treated by Shetland society as a
whole almost as if it didn't exist.<br></font></div><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="2">And this is very important in my opinion. "Out of mind, out of sight," so to speak. I believe that a language without a name is a type of non-entity, and what doesn't exist in people's minds will cease to exist in actuality.<br>
</font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font><font size="2">With regard to education:<br></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="2"><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Where from and by whom? ShetlandForWirds - the ones who are interested
in 'dialect' in Shetland - is already promoting 'dialect' per se. That
is presumably education, but it doesn't address any of these issues.</span></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2">Add to this the tendency </font><font size="2">among naysayers toward using personal circumstances to portrait the opinions and efforts of "movers and shakers" as alien, aberrant and so forth, all in an effort of invalidating their views. It's the same in the Low Saxon scene. It's the "He/she ain't one of us (no more)" approach. Typically, this is directed at </font><font size="2">"movers
and shakers" that have moved away</font><font size="2"> (which in many cases afforded them a new perspective and thus the sort of insight that is perceived as threatening back home).<br><br>And I misspelled:<br></font></p>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2">Which
bets the second question: ...</font></div><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="2">This was supposed to be "</font><font size="2">Which
be<b>g</b>s the second question:". </font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="2"><br></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">*P.S.: I figured out why I want to call you Jim, John. It's your email address beginning with "jm" (for John Magnus).<br>
<span></span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"><span> </span></font></p>
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