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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;">===============================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 03 April 2010 - Volume 01</b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
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===============================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">jmtait</span></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi"> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="go"><<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.30 (02)
[EN]</span><br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Mark Dreyer wrote:<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"<br>
<br>
>Well, John, I did warn you I'd call you & continue calling you(plural)
'Sheltie' & your language 'Sheltie' until you gave me a name to call you
by,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Ah, well, I can't argue with
that!<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">John, if I were the only Boertjie on the list I would write in
Afrikaans & (they have done it) a generous handful of Lowlands speakers
would respond in the same or their own dialects, for the sake of understanding
& in good faith that I would in an amateur scholarly way be as intrigued as
they by the points of contact between their 'dialects' & mine. Pleeeeease
do the same! You have my unqualified licence to respond to all my Afrikaans in
Sheltie. If I strike a snag I shall ask Ron, or better still, Sandy, to help.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Well, I can't understand
Afrikaans at all, so I'm not going to be replying to it! And in the case of
Scots, if I was a Shetlander living in Shetland I would respond in my own
dialect, but since I live on mainland Scotland this just wouldn't occur
to me.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">I think I've shared this on the list before: Robert the Bruce
goes to mass in Dumfries, & who should he
see at the alter-rail beside him but his deadly enemy. In a passion of outrage
he draws his dirk & runs him through. But remember, Our Robert is a
Christian & Penitant, & riven with sorrow he turns away & walks
out. His leutenant Douglas Dubh is standing guard outside, & asks him
(having seen some of the action), "Khwat maccur?"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="NL">Â</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="NL"><br>
Robert: "Ik think ik had a man geslacht."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Â</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"><br>
Douglas: "Think? Think! Then I'll mak
siccur!"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
What language is Bruce speaking here!? The version I'm familiar with goes:<br>
<br>
Bruce: I dout I hae killed the Comyn.<br>
<br>
(Comyn being his rival's name)<br>
<br>
Kirkpatrick: Ye dout? I mak siccar!<br>
<br>
John M. Tait.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">jmtait</span></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi"> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="go"><<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.28 (01)
[EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Sandy</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"> wrote:<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">> From: jmtait <<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</span></a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.23 (03) [EN]<br>
><br>
> The first is the real aversion to the word Shetlandic among many<br>
> ordinary Shetlanders. This can probably be put down to simple lack of<br>
> familiarity, owing to it not being used in print, and ridiculed when<br>
> it is (see below.)<br>
<br>
>Which doesn't stop us from using it, at least until Shetlanders make up<br>
their minds. You were originally talking in terms of not calling<br>
Shetlandic anything at all on this list.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
Well, no, it doesn't stop you using it - just me!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">>I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't doing Shetland
attitudes an<br>
injustice here. Are these highly vocal book, magazine and letter writers<br>
really representative of the native Shetland-speaking populace?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
I think so. I remember at the dialect conference I met a woman in the local
bookshop, who had been attending the conference when she could get away from
work and so had missed my paper. One of the first things she said was 'I hate
dis 'Shetlandic' dey spaek aboot.' (Which demonstrates both the fact that the
term was used - ie, not only by myself - and the aversion to it which, I
suspect, is emergent - in other words, I think that, although the term has
never been popular, the actual reaction against it is relatively recent,
fuelled by precisely those people who fear its 'political' implications.)<br>
<br>
But it's not just the term, it's also the way of thinking that acceptance or
rejection of such a term would and does signify. I think that had that entire
approach been adopted, a younger generation lacking the prejudices of the
establishment might have adopted it. Since that approach was rejected - perhaps
to some extent in deference to the vocal characters you refer to - the opposite
is the case.<br>
<br>
In summary I would say that the vocal characters pick up on an existing trend
and influence the general population further in that direction.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">> Well, yes - but to use a term outside Shetland which is
disowned by<br>
> Shetlanders is self-defeating.<br>
<br>
>Why? We need a term for the language here, we can use it whether<br>
Shetlanders acknowledge it or not. Perhaps we can put them to shame :)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
Well, yes, you can use it (I'll stick to circumlocutions.) Remember, however,
that anything talked about on lists like this is completely irrelevant to what
goes on on the ground. The same could be said for Scots in general.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">>I think these are simply psychological phenomena and that
the real<br>
problem here is in the science, or lack thereof. Psychology and<br>
linguistics are sciences, and all this sort of thing is governed by<br>
their laws, which although they're now crawling out of their dark ages<br>
are still not widely understood by those not actually working in these<br>
fields.<br>
<br>
>How do you get to a point where people understand things well enough to<br>
do the right thing for a language instead of clinging to destructive<br>
beliefs? Language change is pretty much inevitable because that's how<br>
things work. If we want to have more control we need better science but<br>
the relevant sciences are still poorly understood outside of the<br>
disciplines themselves.<br>
<br>
>In the future I think people will say that we destroyed many languages<br>
because we didn't have the necessary scientific understanding of<br>
language change and psychological attitudes to language, or how to<br>
snapshot a language, or what the consequences were of losing a language,<br>
and other such technology and understanding.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
Well yes, I think that's exactly the point. Whereas advances in both science
and education have highlighted race, gender and environmental issues, for
example, language is an area that has seen no significant popular or
establishment recognition of underlying science or advancement in attitudes,
other than - in the UK at least - a wider acceptance of regional accents in the
media.<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, few people (and this is perhaps even more true of institutions)
learn new tricks. In other words, most people are enlightened only insofar as
they have been taught that enlightenment consists in being enlightened about
certain things that society at large has already become enlightened about! (I
did say I was going for a circumlocution award!) In the case of language, it is
still possible for celebrities, radio presenters and others to run programs
with titles like 'Gaelic - who needs it?'. One case was the occasion when Ann
Robinson suggested putting the Welsh into Room 101, and Paul Merton, presenter
of the show, perceptively commented that he couldn't put the Welsh into Room
101 for speaking their own language. To the Welsh this is a well-known
incident, but to someone viewing from elsewhere in the UK - including Scotland - it would simply have
seemed like the exchange of two fairly unimportant individual opinions. And
minority language issues seem to be in conflict with both the traditional right
wing emphasis on propriety and individual betterment, and the traditional
left-wing emphasis on one-world humanism. The preservation of species or
historic buildings is accepted without a murmer (unless you happen to live in
one of said buildings!) whereas societies like the Welsh who struggle for their
language are widely regarded as ridiculous. So the idea of conserving language,
where it isn't seen as simply silly, can easily be represented as retrograde
rather than progressive.<br>
<br>
John M. Tait.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
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