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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;">===============================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 April 2010 - Volume 01</b><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Archive:
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
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===============================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (05)
[EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gi"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I've got modern books on German
that use Werfall etc, alongside the Nominative, Accusative and such.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I agree with your friend, it
does explain what the cases are doing rather better than the Latin words. <span style=""> </span>I didn't even know it was a Nazi thing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Paul</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Derby</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">England</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">DAVID COWLEY</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk">DavidCowley@anglesey.gov.uk</a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (05)
[EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gi"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Very interesting Marlou.<br>
<br>
I understand your friend found the alternative grammar terms helpful<br>
for understanding; this is surely a strong argument for using some of<br>
them. Not Nazi ideology of course, but if non-Latin terms are clearer,<br>
it seems very sad to think they have been tainted just because the Nazis<br>
used and promoted them. Motorways, rockets and jet engines were all<br>
things promoted by the Nazis, but it would of course be outrageous to<br>
suggest that they're bad because of that (they do of course cause<br>
climate change).<br>
<br>
My efforts to promote use of a less Latinised English and the updating<br>
and use of some words from Old English sometimes bring comments like<br>
'the Nazis tried that kind of thing' and it really hurts to think that<br>
maybe there is some kind of point there: Potentially, a group of fanatic<br>
racists could use this kind of idea with any of the world's <span style=""> </span>languages.<br>
But if promoted for use by all, the idea can bring some positive<br>
benefits for understanding. And, unlike motorways, rockets and jets, not<br>
help cause climate change!<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07)
[EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gi"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">From: Hellinckx Luc <<a href="http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</span></a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Subject: LL-L "Language politics"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">I thought many Belgians could behave pretty silly regarding
language matters...but apparently Québec has beat us. Advertising is legally strictly
regulated, the French font should be twice as "big" as the English
subfont. They even have some sort of language police, who is patrolling the
streets with a ruler, measuring characters. Go figure! There's loads of
complaints, thriving business for lawyers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">In Wales, the supermarket chain Tesco
has all signs in both English and Welsh, with the Welsh in bigger letters. <span style=""> </span>No legal requirement as far as I know; just
considered good sales policy (Welsh-speakers feel good about it,
English-speakers couldn't care less).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Paul</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Derby</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">England</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Helge Tietz</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07)
[EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gi"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13pt;">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I can only fully agree to Marcus's observations concerning the fate of the
"Sonnabend" and how this development was triggered by the media,
particularly the television. German TV has, in my opinion and experience,
promoted linguistic conformity to a much greater extend than for instance the
BBC has, although dialects are rarely displayed, regional accents are a regular
features in many films and series on the BBC. Most of all I remember the
children series "Byker Grove" from Newcastle where local children
were employed with original Geordie accents using words such as
"lass" instead of "girl" etc., something unthinkable in
Germany. Living in the Netherlands and married to a Dutch woman raised in New
Zealand our little son, now three weeks old, will, fortunately, escape this
media pressure although some kind of media pressure promoting ABN-Dutch exist
in the Netherlands as well. I am speaking to him in the Holsten variation of
Low Saxon and my wife Dutch, our language at home is Dutch so he is not going
to learn any standard German from us and I assume that his first language is
probably going to be Dutch. I am already wondering how long it will take him to
notice that I actually speak Low Saxon to him.... <br>
<br>
However, about two months ago we went for a short day-trip over the border to
Monschau, just south of Aken/Aachen and there was a young German family sitting
behind us in the little cafe we had some tea, I was listening to the way the
parents communicated with their children and after that I was more than glad
that my child is not exposed to German media, the language they spoke was much
more adapted from the tabloid Bild-Zeitung than anything else, sounding
artificial and fake, a far cry from the language of Hermann Hesse, Heinrich
Boell or Thomas Mann. Any regional accent or dialect would be more honest and
"cultivated" than this. But fact is, that this kind of Bild-Zeitung
language is now common-place and parents believe that this is fashionable and
the way forward for their childrens' future life. I am already wondering what
will happen once I am sitting in a train to Sleswick-Holsten speaking Low Saxon
to my son and singing Low Saxon or Frisian songs to him, I hope somebody will
try to tell me off for teaching "bad language" to my child, my answer
will be ready and will be definite....<br>
<br>
Groeten,<br>
Helge</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gi"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">From: Hellinckx Luc <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</span></a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Subject: LL-L "Language politics"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Beste Marcus,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: purple;">And every country in the world has some laws that stop you from
yelling "asshole" to a cop.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Unless it can be proved it's true?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I have no sources for my
claim, but I still hold it up. I would be very surprised if it was legal
anywhere.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">But not to any other citizen?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I don't know. I wouldn't
make that claim.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Wonder how a Québec cop would take this? If you don't say it in
French, it may again become acceptable, 'cause it comes from a minority
language anyway ;=)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">What I said did not refer
only to the specific English term "asshole" but was meant to refer to
generally "insulting state agents" (in whatever language may be able
to transport insult in the respective context).<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: purple;">But I don't know of any law ever where there was a list of words
whose use is unlawful independant from context.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Yesterday evening on national TV a report about the language
situation in Québec.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">I thought many Belgians could behave pretty silly regarding
language matters...but apparently Québec has beat us. Advertising is legally strictly
regulated, the French font should be twice as "big" as the English
subfont. They even have some sort of language police, who is patrolling the
streets with a ruler, measuring characters. Go figure! There's loads of complaints,
thriving business for lawyers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Some shop owner was selling "stained glass",
"vitraux" in French. He was complaining that because the English
translation was roughly twice as long as the French version, he would have to
scale down the translation so much that it became barely readable. I don't know
if "twice the size" applies to the length of the word or the area it
occupies, whether bold font counts double or if there are any exceptions for
words that are much longer in the other language...but clearly, this is
becoming pathetic! Sadly, the "Sprachpolizei" was telling the
reporter that they were trying to learn from the Belgian situation...sic. Mind
you, all of the English speakers thought that French in Québec did deserve some
sort of extra protection...but not along these lines and to this extent.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">This may not yet be a case of outright "banning", but
it does boil down to systematic discrimination. Like Sandy remarked earlier on, in a subcultural
or tabloid context, such a policy can indeed trigger the opposite effect, but
in a very competitive, economic environment I have my doubts.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">It is systematic
discrimination, but it is also a counter-measure against systematic
discrimination. Quebec
is surrounded by English-speaking regions. If there is no positive
discrimination for French, French will slowly go the way that so many languages
went. Even when we omit the native languages Canada was once a country with
three languages. Canadian Gaelic is now almost dead. Native languages are
almost dead. Darwinistic competition in an unregulated free market of languages
leads to language death. Therefore this sort of discrimination is okay to me.
If the language does well without it, it's even better.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: Hannelore Hinz <<a href="mailto:HanneHinz@t-online.de" target="_blank">HanneHinz@t-online.de</a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Hallo Freunde,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ich möchte eure Ausführungen ergänzen bzw. hinzufügen.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">In der Volksschule 1. - 4. Klasse keine lateinischen Bezeichnungen in der
Grammatik.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Bei Grundrechnungsarten <span style=""> </span>keine
Bezeichnungen wie <span style=""> </span>Zusammenzählen
(Addieren, die Addition); [ 3 u. 2: die Summanden <em><span style="font-family: Arial;">m,</span></em> + : das Pluszeichen, <span style=""> </span>= das Gleichheitszeichen, 5: die Summe (das
Ergebnis, Resultat)] oder <span style=""> </span>das Malnehmen,
Multiplikand, Multiplikator, Produkt usw..</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Könnt ihr euch noch an "Heini und Leni", eine Fibel für die
ABC-Schützen vor 1933</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">(Hoch- und Niederdeutsch) erinnern?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Ab fünftes Schuljahr konnte man folgende Schulen besuchen (es war nicht
immer die Leistung entscheidend): Mittelschule, Lyzeum, Gymnasium. An diesen
Schulen dann die nun gegenwärtigen Bezeichnungen.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Ich wollte nicht die Mittelschule besuchen, weil die Mädchen dort so
eingebildet waren. Ich setzte meinen Wunsch durch.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">In der Volksschule merkten wir Kinder nicht viel von jener
"braunen" Zeit. Ältere erfahrene Lehrer/innen unterrichteten uns.
Erst in den späteren Jahren 7. bzw. 8. Klasse spürten wir den Druck. Die
Klassenlehrerin der 8. Klasse war eine schlimme "Nazisse", sie war
ein Wolf im Schafsfell.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Näheres ist hier zu erfahren:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaube_und_Sch%C3%B6nheit" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="DE">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaube_und_Schönheit</span></a></span><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Hartlich.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Hanne<span class="gi"></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
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