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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 02 June 2010 - Volume 01</b><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="DE">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="DE">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
From: Hannelore Hinz <span style=""> </span><a href="mailto:HanneHinz@t-online.de" target="_blank">HanneHinz@t-online.de</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.06.01 (04) [EN]</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Hallo leiw' Frünn',</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">un wi snacken:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ick heff, du hest, hei sei et/dat hett,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">wi hebben, ji hefft (hemm'), sei hebben.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Un wenn ein seggt "hemm' ", denn is dat noch so'n echten ollen
Plattdüütschen, dat hett mi dunnmals mien Lihrer verklort. Ick heff't beläwt.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In West-Mäkelborg hürt'n ok af un an <span style=""> </span>"wi hefft".</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Nu is de Lent (Lenz) woll
endlich dor.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Best Gräuten.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Hanne</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar"
2010.06.01 (04) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span class="gi"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: Hellinckx Luc <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</span></a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Subject: LL-L
"Language politics"</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Beste Hannelore,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="NL">...Ja, un 2006 hebben wi, dat heit,
Schäuler un ick de VHS verlaten.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">It strikes me you consistently write "hebben wi", where
Ron, Marcus and Arend would say "hebbt wi". I have the impression
your Saxon is very authentic though, therefore I wonder, which one would be the
innovation, "hebben wi" or "hebbt wi"?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Any ideas anybody?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Here's
the map from the <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Sprachatlas" target="_blank">Deutscher Sprachatlas</a> for it: <<a href="http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=333" target="_blank">http://137.248.81.135/diwa/ECW.asp?ID1=333</a>>
(Java applet needed to view). A map for the Netherlands can be found here: <<a href="http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html" target="_blank">http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html</a>>.
I cannot give a direct link cause of the site design. You have to click on
'rijtjes', then you have to look for the link for 'wij hebben'. In the next
pop-up window click 'wijhebben OK', then on 'go create map'. Then a form will
open. Click on 'use extensive form'. Then fill in "t" in 'Form A,
request 1, start' and e.g. "w" in 'Form B, request 1, start'. Then
click 'quick map' and the map will be shown (this site does an awesome
performance in usability ;-) It took me quite a time to get meaningful maps
from the interface.).<br>
<br>
Both forms are legitimate Low Saxon, just as Ron said. But looking at the map
we can clearly see, that "wi hebbt" is used in the territories that
were historically settled by the Saxons and that "wi hebben" is an
innovation used in those areas that were once Slavic (Mecklenburg, Pomerania,
Prussia, Brandenburg), Baltic (Prussia), Frisian (Eastern Frisia, Groningen),
Danish (Schleswig) or Frankish (Northern Hesse) and only later saxonized.
That's quite astounding, cause virtually _all_ colonial dialects have this
feature in common, although virtually _none_ of the original Saxon dialects
have it.<br>
<br>
These plural forms are interesting in another respect. Saxon Low Saxon has the
scheme "wi hebbt, ji hebbt, se hebbt" for "we have, you have,
they have". All three forms are the same. Colonial Low Saxon has "wi
hebben, ji hebben, se hebben". Again all three forms are the same. That's
in clear contrast to the Frankish dialects (including standard Dutch and
standard German) which have the scheme "wir haben, ihr habt, sie
haben" with two different forms. (Although in Dutch this is obscured by
the changes that followed the introduction of polite forms 'jij' and 'jullie'
replacing 'du' and 'jij' [comparable to 'you' replacing 'thou' in English].)
The isogloss between dialects using only one form for the plural and dialects
using two forms is called the 'Einheitsplurallinie' and this isogloss almost
perfectly matches the language border between Dutch and German on the one side
and Low Saxon on the other side.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
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