<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2010 - Volume 02<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language proficiency" 2010.06.25 (01) [AF-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">This is a topic of great
interest to me as you might gather and I look forward to your findings.
Certainly quote anything I might write here if it's of use.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately I don't speak
any other language at a level anywhere near my English so I've never had the
experience myself - though back in the 70s I flew South African Airways so
often I could quote both the English and Afrikaans safety talks verbatim!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Possibly related is the
condition of children raised with two or more languages. My son was three when
we left South Africa
and he'd grown up with English (at home ) and Afrikaans at the creche. He
rarely if ever got the two confused, he flicked over like a switch.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">One of my nephews lives in Finland
(his wife is Finnish) and their kids are growing up with both languages. <span style=""> </span>He always speaks English to the kids, she only
uses Finnish. <span style=""> </span>The oldest, as a
3-year-old, likewise never got mixed up. She seemed to rapidly identify who
spoke what and addressed them in the relevant language thereafter. <span style=""> </span>Many of their Finnish friends speak perfect English,
and sometimes speak to her in that language, but she steadfastly refuses to use
it in return; she replies in Finnish. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Paul</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Derby</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">England</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Language proficiency<br>
<br>
I wonder if there is are differences in switching and interpreting between two languages
with regard to their relatedness or lack thereof.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that in my case interference is strongest the more closely related
the two languages are, especially where there is a fair or high degree of mutual
intelligibility.<br><br>Mari (Estonian and English (and Russian?)) and Antero (Finnish, Swedish, English, Dutch) might be able to shed some light on this.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Obiter Dictum</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:obiterdictum@mail.ru">obiterdictum@mail.ru</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language proficiency" 2010.06.25 (04) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Hi Ron,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">> First of all:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">> > (Ron ... I put my
money on you, especially ; )</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">> How much are we talking
about, and will I get a cut?</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">A tenner, fella me lad :) Chervonetz. Ten
roubles, you know (since I'm in Moscow
now). Btw, are you in for a loss as well? :)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Thank a ton, you Ron, Sandy,
Paul and Mark, for your great stories. (Sandy's
story of people keeping talking in BSL among themselves is superb.) May I quote
y'all?</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Well, it seems other
Lowlanders really take a break for the weekend. Ok. To keep up the subject
going, here is my two cents.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">1. Back in the late 1997 or
early 1998, as a "host" lawyer, I accompanied a crowd of UK, US,
German and Swiss lawyers and auditors at a meeting with the top managers of a
big Russian company who was about to issue Eurobonds. The Westerners bombarded
the Russians with questions, the Russians answered; I interpreted.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">It happened after an hour
and a half of my fairly smooth (by that time) interpretation. I was rendering,
chunk by chunk, an extended explanation given by the Russian across the table
from me. I delivered his last the sentence in what I thought was English and
nodded to him to go on. Instead, he said quietly (in Russian), "You said
it in Russian."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"Ugh?" I asked
dumbly.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"What I've just said.
My answer. You did not interpret. You repeated it in Russian."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">What a blooper! And that was
after I had told the Westerners we needed no interpreter. I was so proud of my
interpreting skills! The Westerners waited patiently; they thought I was
clearing some hazy point before interpreting.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I think, however, that the
reason for my "interpreting" into the source language (as the
translators call it) was that I was just tired by the time, and I was no
professional interpreter after all, though I did the job fairy well for the
remainder of the meeting.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">2. This one is somewhat
closer to what Roger wrote about not remembering in which language one has read
or heard something.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Four years ago, I happened
to know the exact wording (and origin) of the statement that I didn’t remember
well: "African dictators used English as a tool of nation-building and
failed." (I don't remember now why I wanted it, but it had something to do
with the background for my study of Afrikaans).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I was dead positive that I
had read that in Russian, and even thought I knew where: in the blog of a
Russian historian who was an outspoken critic of Mugabe, Nujoma and (then)
Mbeki. I went to his blog, ransacked it throughout, but did not find the quote.
I posted the question then, asking the blogger if it was he who wrote that, and
could he please give me the link to it, and could he please elaborate. He
replied that he had never posted anything like that.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Then, by elimination, I
decided the statement belonged to Dan Roodt, the Afrikaans writer, whose
articles I read in English and Afrikaans about that time, too. And I wondered
again if I had read that in English or in Afrikaans.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I finally found it. It was
Dan Roodt all right, and the statement was in English: "Although English
is spoken [in South Africa]
as a mother tongue by only three million people (including more than one
million Indians) out of 46 million, it is the official medium of
"nation-building," that forlorn dream of every African government
since the 1950s." Rood wrote that in the American Renaissance in May 2004.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Looking forward to your
further input.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Best regards,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Vlad Lee</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Tokyo, Japan/Moscow, Russia</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</a><br>
=========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>