<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
span.yshortcuts
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2010 - Volume 03<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
From: Antero Helasvuo <<a href="mailto:antero.helasvuo@welho.com">antero.helasvuo@welho.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: Language
proficiency</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ron:<br>
"I wonder if there is are differences in switching and interpreting
between two languages with regard to their relatedness or lack thereof.<br>
It seems to me that in my case interference is strongest the more closely
related the two languages are, especially where there is a fair or high degree
of mutual intelligibility.<br>
Mari (Estonian and English (and Russian?)) and Antero (Finnish, Swedish,
English, Dutch) might be able to shed some light on this."<br>
<br>
This could be a complicated matter. We could for instance assume, that actually
there are no languages just countless different ways of saying the same things.
I think little children experience it that way: Daddy says it ("I'm
hungry") so, mommy says it so and the doggie says it so. Only later comes
the realization, that daddy speaks Russian, mommy Finnish and the doggie...
well. People who grow up or spend a lot of time in a multilingual environment
switch languages without even realizing it in the middle of a conversation. On
a marketplace you might meet people who speak different dialects. An empathetic
person changes their way of speaking depending on who they speak anyway.<br>
<br>
You hear about villages in some parts of Southern Africa,
where the language is different in places relatively close to each other.
Somehow they still manage to communicate with each other. Being language conscious
I personally find it difficult to speak German that I constantly mix up with
Dutch that I know far better. Another matter is of course the "false
friends" that cause confusion between closely related languages. Ulvi
Wirén ha compiled a hilarious booklet "Hääd pulmapäeva! (Hyvää
hääpäivää)" on false friends between Estonian and Finnish.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Antero Helasvuo<br>
Luutnantinpolku 9 C 20<br>
00410 HELSINKI<br>
FINLAND<br>
<br>
TEL +358 9 5872345<br>
<a href="mailto:antero.helasvuo@welho.com" target="_blank">antero.helasvuo@welho.com</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de
Jong</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language proficiency" 2010.06.27
(01) [EN]</span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br><span class="gi"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hello Vlad, Sandy, Ron, Leslie and both Pauls,</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Let me
add my two cents to this interesting conversation….</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My
experience is that there are two different ways of being fluent in two - or
more – languages. It must have to do with when we learn the other language.
English is my second language. I was born in the Netherlands, and although I heard a
fair amount of English when I was a child, I never <b>learned</b> it until I
went to High school. I arrived in the US in 1959 to go to Graduate school
and, although I am fluent, I am still learning the language. When asked, I say
that I have two languages. For me, these two languages each have their own
sphere, or if you want to express this in a more pedestrian way they each live
in their own drawer in the linguistic bookcase in my head. I will dream in
English or in Dutch depending on the subject of my dream. When I went to the
hospital for a minor operation, some of the medical students and members of the
nursing staff (who knew me because I worked in the same hospital) asked me
questions in several languages while I was coming out of my anesthesia induced
coma and I answered them in the language they spoke to me. When I am
interpreting or when I am working on a translation I have the feeling that
sentences in the one language are changed into some form of emotional energy.
It is as if this energy travels outside my brain and comes back in to another
place where it is translated into the necessary vocabulary, grammar, syntax and
the emotionality to add the necessary idiomatic quality to the sentence, which
then get spoken or written down. I am in some kind of a trance when I am doing
it. A couple of years ago I had to travel to Anchorage, Alaska
to do the simultaneous translation in a court case involving a Dutch company.
The hearings went on for four days and when they were finally finished it was
Friday afternoon at about 4.30 and I had to make a run for the airport. I
hailed a cab, but was bewildered by the reaction of the driver to my request to
take him to the airport and a conversation that took place. Finally, after
about 10 minutes it dawned upon me that I kept translating everything he said
into Dutch instead of giving him an answer in English….</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My
daughter, however, was raised bilingually. Her Father spoke English with her
and I spoke Dutch. There were Dutch family friends and American family friends.
But Tamara can do something that I consider magic. She can switch from one
language to the next without losing the syntax of the sentence. I have asked
her to explain how she does it, but she does not know. She also would never
translate a Dutch idiom into English or vice versa and I would not give you a
penny for every time I have done that. She seems to have the two languages in
one drawer, but each morpheme is tagged as either Dutch or English. I wonder
whether Paul’s nephew can shine some light on that phenomenon. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And
finally: Vlad if you want to publish your collection of multi-linguistic
tidbits, you have my permission to use mine. One request though; let me know when
and where I can read itI</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jacqueline
BdJ</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Language proficiency</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This
weekend I talked with a man who was born and raised in Panama. He told
me that for quite a few childhood years he just thought he believed that the way
they spoke in his home and among certain family friends was simply a “homey” variety
of Castilian (Spanish), the language “out there.” It was only when he realized that
those people that shared his home variety were Jewish that he learned that he was
dealing with Judeo-Castilian a.k.a. Ladino a.k.a. Judeo-Spanish. Knowing both languages,
the differences seemed insignificant to him, though Spanish speakers would not be
able to understand many Ladino expressions.<br>
<br>
His awareness came about only when he realized that his home sphere was that of
a minority.<br>
<br>
Language information:<br>
<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ladino-info.php">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ladino-info.php</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA<br>
<br>
P.S.: Vlad, you may quote.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_4">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_5">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></span></a> or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_6">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_7">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_8">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></span></a><br>
=========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>