<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
span.yshortcuts
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 June 2010 - Volume 04<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 131, 145);">Mark Dreyer</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language proficiency" 2010.06.25 (01) [AF-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Vlad Lee</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL-L. Language Proficiency</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Groete van nog 'n (hedendaagse) skuiler, Mark</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Maar ter wille van die hele streep belangstellendes, laat ons vêrder in
Engels;</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
I can only concur that when I follow a conversation I pay no attention to the
language we are speaking in, & if it becomes relevant at some later stage I
must deduce it from other data. I have been an interpreter for Israelis here,
& sundry English-speakers in Israel, & on the basis of my
experiences fluency in languages doesn't help much with simultaneous
translation between them.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In the end I told the
people, "Say what you want him to hear as though you're talking to him,
& I'll talk to him as though it is you saying it." But if someone
asked me how you say this (...) in the other language I'm flummoxed. It works
both ways but I have a trick. If you ask me to <strong>spell</strong> the word in the other language it comes like a
shot. I think cross-fluency between languages is a skill like a language
itself, & has also to be learned.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I believe the mind
compartmentalises any given language in its own locus in the brain, each tongue
in its own place, & cross-fluency is another skill entirely & gets a
place of its own too.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">My assumtion has support in
the experience of victims of strokes or traumatic brain damage, & lose one
language but not another There is a case, Vlad, where a Japanese bloke had a
stroke, I think, which destroyed his ability to read & write Katekana, but
he had no difficulty with Hiregama or the Classical script.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mind you there is a lot we
still don't know about consciousness, mind & language. Once I was roped in
to help in the workshop on the kibbutz, well before I was fluent. They only
needed another pair of hands. Well, there I was on my back with my legs
sticking out holding up a feelthy sump while the mechanic sloped off to find
something I don't know what. While he is away another man comes in & in a
conversational tone says something I follow not in the least, but getting no
response from me he kicks my shoes & asks again. By now I am getting ratty
& I let go with a blast of Hebrew I follow not a whit.The bloke says
"Toda <u>h</u>abibi." & pushes off. Mechanic comes back later,
finishes the job, & thanks me (in English, of course) for helping his
buddy. I hadn't the nous to ask him what I dun, assuming I dunit.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I dream in the languages I know,
I can't always say for sure which, except that I may be aware which tongue some
denizens of my dreams know or prefer to speak. There is an exception. In the
early days of my wanderings in Israel
I was studying the people, their language & their Faith. I had got hold of Maimonades'
'Guide to the Perplexed', in English translation. I was well through the book
when I had a dream about him. I dreamt I went into an awesomely Ionic-looking
auditorium & sat down to a long & no doubt very profound lecture by the
Rambam himself. I knew it was him because of his dress, & moreover, he was
green like his banknote. He lectured in Hebrew, & the company around
commented in Hebrew. It was a long dream & I heard nothing else. Now how do
you dream in a language you don't understand?</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In some contexts the knowledge
is inevitable. This Saturday evening I am in the van posting guards. Our HQ is
in the shadow of Loftus Stadium, where Chile
is playing Spain.
The road is blocked in front of me by a crowd of men in knots sorted by
national colours, waving flags, wearing funnified miner's hats & blowing
vuvuzelas. A leadfoot steps in front of me & stops me with an imperious
hand. He's not one of ours (there's a lot of these around) but he's a leadfoot all
the same. I stop. Suddenly one of the guards calls to me from the back,
pointing to an oncoming articulated lorry & trailer full of beer. We were
between the hunter & the prey... The guard says to me, "Tina zo
sheshisha, Mandefu!" (We will have to move, Mandefu! ((My Bantu name. It
means 'bearded')) ).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I say to the leadfoot,
"Nos vamos, compadre." (We're moving, buddy). He understood the
problem exactly. He no less imperiously shuffled a trail open through the
milling herd of baying fans & we made our escape.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Don't talk to me abut
vuvuzelas.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Yrs, Vlad, Ron & All,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mark.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_4">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_5">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></span></a> or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_6">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_7">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts"><span id="lw_1277667152_8">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></span></a><br>
=========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>