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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><b>L O W L A N D S - L - 09 July 2010 - Volume 03</b><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi">LL-L "History" 2010.07.09 (01) [EN]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jonny</span> <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" target="_blank">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">First of all: did you miss the little joke at
the beginning of my posting and the smiley at the end, right after my name? So
this could have shown you that I'm acting more as an imp than as an </span><em style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">annoying devil(s)</em><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"> ;-) advocate.
I'm trying to give the whole matter an easy touch with a hard core, and so I
shall continue.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I did miss it ;-) Nothing
against impyness in general, but I have a hard time when "fact talk"
and "funny talk" is combined, especially when discussing in a foreign
language and in a written medium where you have no context of mimic or gestural
expression ;-) (and even more so if I have an emotional bond to one of the
positions in the argument)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Second of all: let me tell you that one of my
most important dialogue partner of Low Saxon, my dear and very next neighbour
Amandus Ahlf (you might google for him, Marcus!) claims to avoid the use of Low
Saxon names for locations which are situated outside of an undestinated home
district, even in a pure Low Saxon talk. It's just good to cause confusion
amongst the speakers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From a pragmatical point of
view that makes sense. But from a pragmatical point of view Low Saxon should
die. From a pragmatical point of view we all should only speak Esperanto (or
one of the other constructed languages that go even further in purifying the
logicalness of the language). From media exposure most people know the German
names but don't know the Low Saxon ones (cause of the lack of Low Saxon media
and the poor distribution of the few existing Low Saxon media). But that's the
direct road to language abolishment.<br>
<br>
One of the projects I'm working on is collecting all the Low Saxon place names
(<a href="http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiprojekt_%C3%96%C3%B6rd" target="_blank">Wikipedia:Wikiprojekt Öörd</a>). So far we've collected several
thousand place names which is the most extensive corpus of Low Saxon place
names ever compiled. The next step I'm planning is integrating this data into <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/" target="_blank">OpenStreetMap</a> (what
Wikipedia is for encyclopedia is OpenStreetMap for maps) thus creating the
first ever extensive map with Low Saxon place names. My vision is that
hopefully one day this map (and other's of its kind that will spring off) help
to make Low Saxon place names known among Low Saxon speakers in the same way
German names are known now. The thing I'm stuck with at the moment is the right
spelling of the place names. Should I keep the original spelling of the sources
(which is totally non-uniform), should I unify the spelling of the names and to
what degree? Rather tricky question and whatever I do will evoke opponents.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: teal;">> It's the
fault of the fact that 'Beers' is Low Saxon.</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Are you sure that it really <u>is</u> Low
Saxon? Where is the proof?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">The proof is that it's used
in Low Saxon speech!? Or is this question just impyness? In my previous mail I
explained the sound shifts that led to the word. It's obviously the direct
successor of the old "*Bederiks-a".<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">So I repeat: what about my guess that
"Beers" is just a result of local dialect, perhaps closer to Standard
German than to LS?! I don't mind if it is just 50 or even 100, 200 or 300 years
old! I'm pretty sure that a lot of 'Beersters' (to make things even weirder:
suddenly appears a "t"!) use it this way though they are completely
unable to speak Platt.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I don't understand that
argument. The local dialect is Low Saxon, so what's the difference? Why and in
what way should it be influenced by standard German? Standard German is
"Bederkesa"!?<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; color: teal;">> You may know another language, that
has heavily worn forms. How do you pronounce "London"? Do you speak two
"o"s? > Or is it rather "Landen" (I use German-based
spelling)? How do you pronounce "situation"? It's
"sittjuäyschen". "Language" > is pronounced
"längwidsch"! "Worcestershire" is "Wustersche"!
"Plymouth"
is "Plimmes"!...</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; color: teal;">> So, Jonny, would your critique also
apply to English? Or French?</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Asking me this way I would answer: yes! And I
feel myself being in good companionship with a lot of native speakers of the
mentioned languages ;-). <em><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Man - ick
gloyv ne' recht, watt ick daor watt an maoken kunn'. Dey hoyrt mii jao ne' tou
;-)!</span></em> (I don't think that I would be able do change anything there. <em><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">pun:</span></em> They don't listen to me /
they don't belong to me.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Well, at least you are
consequent in your arguments ;-)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; color: teal;">> Why do you speak about abuse? It's
just the normal development of the word. The 'd' lacks cause 'd' between vowels
was > lost. Your dialect of Low Saxon has "Lü" instead of
"Lüde" too, hasn't it? The 'a' lacks cause unstressed vowels in the
last > syllable were reduced to schwa and then subject to apocope (just as -
again - 'Lü' vs. 'Lüde'). That would lead to 'Beerks'. > I don't know about
the 'k', but there'll be some reason too.</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">A kind of vowel shifting XXL?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">I would prefer to write <em><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Lüüd</span></em> or perhaps <em><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Lüü'</span></em>, but generally I don't like
it very much to write 'opp Platt' - as easy and comfortable as it is to speak
for me, as hard it is to pen.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">It was hard for me too when
I started writing it five years ago. I hadn't learned it in school or anywhere
else and my writing was mediocre to put it mildly. But I learned it by doing
and I think my writing is quite decent now and I know to write Low Saxon off
pat just as I know to write German. If you want to change the status quo you
just have to move forward without sticking to your status quo habits.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
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