<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
span.yshortcuts
{mso-style-name:yshortcuts;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><b>L O W L A N D S - L - 12 July 2010 - Volume 02</b><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span class="yshortcuts">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Elsa
Primo</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:elsa_primo@yahoo.com">elsa_primo@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "History" 2010.07.11 (02) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mecklenburg had its own flag
after WWII which was one of 14 DEPARTMENTAL 'ENSIGNS" which composed GERMANY...If I
am not mistaken, it was a RED CROSS on a BLUE BACKGROUND? TWO-COLORS ONLY. Just
like ICELAND
but without the white background. Is that correct? I was told if we want to
find out definitively anything about FLAGS in general to ask James Ferrigan at
the FLAG CENTER
in SANTA CRUZ CALIFORNIA, he is one of the world's leading
authorities on the matter of NEW FLAGS.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gi">LL-L "History" 2010.07.11 (02) [EN]</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: Jonny <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</span></a>> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Subject: LL-L
"History" 2010.07.11 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace; color: navy;">If you read one of the links Marcus gave us you'll find the
argument that the German semi-province
of Eastern Frisia doesn't
feel comfortable itself with any Saxon symbols like a horse. And that is
probably the community with the greatest number of Low Saxon speakers in Germany.</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It certainly is the region
with the highest _density_ of Low Saxon speakers, but it is not the region with
the greatest number of speakers. </span>Eastern Frisia<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
has less than 500.000 inhabitants. The overall number of Low Saxon speakers in </span>Germany<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is
about 3 million. So it's just 10 to 15% of the total.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style="color: navy;">The same could be valid for our closely neighboured Wurt-Frisians
as well as for the Northern Frisians in Schleswig-Holstein. And what about the
(as you named them some weeks ago...) "colonial" ;-) provinces with
speakers of LS - as Mecklenburg in special?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: navy;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">So I think these more neutral heraldic (or [German:] 'Vexillologie'
- never heard this word before) should not become overloaded by symbols of the
type others than Saxons can't identify themselves with.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I
have never heard about any Wurt-Frisian identity.<br>
<br>
About the east: Mecklenburg is not part of the
traditional home areas of the Saxon tribe. In the times when the Saxons were an
independent tribe Mecklenburg was still
Slavic. But lateron Mecklenburg was settled by Saxons from Holstein
and Westfalia mainly. They brought with them their Saxon culture and language
and Slavic culture and language became subdued. The Mecklenburgians also
referred to their language by the term "sassisch" in former times. In
the 16th century their self-designation was either "düdesch" (which
was a catch-all term for Dutch, German and Low Saxon) or "sassisch"
(which was used when they wanted to make the distinction to Dutch and German).<br>
<br>
The Frisians may not universally "connect" to the Saxon horse, but
what's the alternative from a symbolism point-of-view?<br>
<br>
The alternatives are basically "more" or "less".
"more" means to include additional symbols that represent the
different Frisian regions, the Sleswigians, the different eastern territories,
etc. That'll be neutral, but who wants to hoist a rug rag? Wikimedia Commons
has some images of Anaram au Patac protests for Occitan linguistic rights where
activists have flags with the Occitan cross (<a href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L%27occitan_a_l%27esc%C3%B2la.jpg" target="_blank"><http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L%27occitan_a_l%27esc%C3%B2la.jpg></a>).
Can you imagine the same with a combo flag that features a dozen different
symbols? (Look at this coat of arms to see an extreme example: <a href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg" target="_blank"><http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg></a>).
If you want to identify with a flag the flag should contain a single main
symbol (or be a symbol itself [e.g. a tricolore]).<br>
<br>
The second alternative is "less". That means no Saxon horse, no
symbol at all. That'll be neutral, but if you want that, then you should go
with the real "no symbol at all" and not have a flag.<br>
<br>
The Noordlandflagg at the moments opts for symbolism and has chosen the symbols
of Scandinavia and the former Land Oldenburg.
In my opinion the Saxon horse symbolizing the Saxons is far superior over the
Scandinavia/Oldenburg symbols.<br>
<br>
The flag that I created in the discussion at <a href="http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Praotkefee/Archief/2#Nedersaksische_vlagge.3F" target="_blank"><http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Praotkefee/Archief/2#Nedersaksische_vlagge.3F></a>
also features a Hanseatic cog and a castle: <a href="http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofbeelding:Sassenflagg4.png" target="_blank"><http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofbeelding:Sassenflagg4.png></a>.
The cog as a symbol for the Hanseatic League
is clearly a symbol that _any_ Low Saxon region can identify with.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
History<br>
<br>
Whatever it’s worth, I’m pretty much on the same page with you in this matter,
Marcus. The horse is <i>the</i> tribal Saxon symbol, and it is even featured in the old
Saxon-dominated area of southeastern England (Kent).<br>
<br>
But I also agree with Paul’s dislike of “fussiness.” I’m most certainly not in
favor of a million symbols (and colors) flying around on a single flag, especially when most
people aren’t even sure what they are and what they represent. Usually, the
simpler the design the more I tend to like it. Take the Japanese flag, for
instance. It’s “powerfully simple.”<br>
<br>
If it be a horse, then it ought to be large and simple, and there should be just
one solid background color. It doesn’t have to be the usual red. It could be
green (for the land) or, to be different, gray (for sky and water ...).<br>
<br>
So if flags are boring (to go by Sandy),
let’s mix it up some and make it <i>simple and different</i>!<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a> or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></a><br>
=========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>