<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="Edit-Time-Data" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_editdata.mso"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;
mso-font-charset:2;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:0 268435456 0 0 -2147483648 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:806896343;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:69472840 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:1.0in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
margin-left:1.0in;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 24 July 2010 - Volume 02<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Vexillology"
2010.07.24 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 102); margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal">From: Michael Everson <<a href="mailto:everson@evertype.com" target="_blank">everson@evertype.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 102); margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal">On 24 Jul 2010, at 00:10,
Lowlands-L List wrote:<br>
<br>
> And recognised as such. A cross or any other religious symbol is just not
a good for a flag in my opinion. Where I"m from, we had Saxon speaking
muslims (if all the kids speak Saxon, what do you do...). I'm sure they would
take offence.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 102); margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">Why? Do they complain about
the flags in </span>Denmark<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Sweden<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Finland<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">,
</span>Norway<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Iceland<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, the
Faeroes? What about the non-Nordic crosses used in the </span>UK<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);"> and </span>Cornwall<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">.
Should those folks all abandon their flags? Hmpf.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It's
one thing to accept imperfections established by history and it's a whole
nother thing to create new imperfections.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck<br>
<br>
----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Henry Pijffers</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:henry.pijffers@gmail.com">henry.pijffers@gmail.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Michael Everson skreev:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 102);" class="MsoNormal">Ik skreev:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 102);" class="MsoNormal"><br>
> And recognised as such. A cross or any other religious symbol is just not
a good for a flag in my opinion. Where I"m from, we had Saxon speaking
muslims (if all the kids speak Saxon, what do you do...). I'm sure they would
take offence.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 102);" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">Why? Do they complain about
the flags in </span>Denmark<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Sweden<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Finland<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">,
</span>Norway<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, </span>Iceland<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">, the
Faeroes? What about the non-Nordic crosses used in the </span>UK<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);"> and </span>Cornwall<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">.
Should those folks all abandon their flags? Hmpf.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">The difference is, the
people in all the places you mentioned are all used to their cross flags and
don't think about it (like I never gave the Dutch or Twente flags any thought).
For people overhere, it would be new, so they would probably think about the
symbolism more.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 102);" class="MsoNormal">And what's so awful about
"offence", anyway?</p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Offended people put
themselves outside your targeted group. If pëople take offence at your flag,
you will have missed your goal, at least partially.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Henry</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From:
<img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ron/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif" class=" QrVm3d" name="upi" width="1" border="0" height="1"><span class="gd"><span><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Mark
Dreyer</span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (01) [EN]</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Hi All!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L
"Vexilology"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I have been following this
flag-string with one eye from the first, & with very mixed feelings, for it
is a sore point in my country. The pressure to satisfy all parties down this
way means that all our flags have been rather doggy. What can one expect, when
all union to speak of was establised by conquest, & restitution achieved
with calculated contempt of ethnicity?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I can only warn all
interested parties that trying to be all things to all men violates not only
the design but the spirit of the thing. If the flag embraces only one small
faction, whatever it may be, then so be it! I might add that a
march-past of a hundred standard-bearers waving the self-same bunting
strikes me as the epitome of tedium, if not a threat of something worse. But
hold, what about a hundred men wielding a hundred different, distinctive flags?
Suddenly you have a parade, if not a carnaval! & suddenly you have a
visceral layout of the locale's cultural foison plenty. Isn't that worth
cultivating? To each his own, & having different neighbours makes you
special in your own way, as much as they.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Further to the point, Ron, I
agree with you that The Cross in any style carries with it a melancholy
baggage. But the burden is more & greater the horrors that factions of the
Prince of Peace worked upon each other than that they committed against the
'lesser breeds without the Law' (Kipling). & the other easy alternative,
various evolutions of the Tricolour embracing Humanist values, calls to mind
other opressions, by omission & also by commission.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Yes, Charlemagne did convert
our Saxon forebears at point of sword, but let us not suppose that they were
peaceable milquetoasts without animus to anybody - well, maybe selectively, but
I fail to identify with the honour of being selected as a human sacrifice to an
oak-tree, however great. Another hearty pack of heathens were the Vikings,
& when one considers what they did across their frontiers, a king of that
time would be wise & good on his subjects' behalves, to settle with such
deadly neighbours in some effective way. I suppose the survivors preferred to
be peaceable Christians than dead warriors. Remember, Ron, that white horse is
not running or fleeing, it is charging! It is not easy to judge fairly out of
the context of one's Times & Circumstances.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">For my part, Guys, I say as
the hair begins standing up my back, I go with the white horse on a green
field, or to blazon it correctly, 'Vert a Charger Argent'. & I would
look to my right & left, before & behind me & expect each of my
fellows to blazoning something different. Vive la difference!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Groete,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Mark</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Subject:
Vexillology</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Some tidbits of
internationally lesser-known history pertaining to some countries that feature crosses
on their flags:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From 1000 until 1852 there were no Jews
in Norway
because Jews and other non-Christians where banned from the country.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">With the conclusion of the Danish
Reformation in 1536, Jews and Catholics were prohibited entry into Denmark. Prior
to that, no Jews seem to have lived in Denmark,
and the attitude was pretty much like that in (Danish-ruled) Norway: “No
non-Christians please.” In 1628, the presence of Portuguese Jews along the
lower Elbe (in today’s Northern Germany)
necessitated a legal amendment to give residence permits to certain Jews in certain areas then under
the Danish crown.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">In 1680 the Jews of Stockholm
petitioned the king that they be permitted to reside there without abandoning
their creed, but the application was denied because the local consistory had
refused to endorse it. On December 3, 1685, Charles XI ordered the
governor-general of the capital to see that no Jews were permitted to settle in
Stockholm and
in any other part of the country, "on account of the danger of the
eventual influence of the Jewish religion on the pure evangelical faith."
In case Jews were found in any Swedish community, they were to be notified to
leave within fourteen days. Jews and Muslims moving to Sweden had to
convert to Christianity to be allowed to stay. Swedish Jews that evaded conversion
received equal status with other Swedes as late as in 1910 (i.e. 100 years ago).</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Few Jews moved to Iceland. Those
that did had to at least outwardly assimilate, such as by taking on Icelandic
names. In granting Icelandic residence permits during the Great Depression in the 1930s,
Christian Scandinavians and Germans were given preference to Jews from the same
countries. Even during and soon after World War II Jewish refugees were not welcome
in Iceland,
and the local press portrayed them as bothersome ragtag exotics that needed to be
kept out.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Jews were expelled from England in 1290, following various attacks on them,
especially the massacres of London and York (1189–1190).</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 12.25pt; text-indent: -12.25pt;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span dir="LTR"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Jews were banished from Swiss towns in
the 1620s, and from 1776 they were allowed to reside exclusively in two
villages. Legal freedom was granted to all religious communities in Switzerland no earlier
than in 1874.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;">=========================================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>