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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 24 July 2010 - Volume 04<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (02) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I find it hard to believe
that Ron's very original, peaceable and<br>
appropriate idea for a flag has received so little appreciation (but<br>
thanks to Jacqueline and Paul for "getting it", too).<br>
<br>
To my mind traditional heraldry is just propaganda for the illiterate.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "Vexillology"</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Ron,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 12.25pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Some tidbits of internationally lesser-known history pertaining
to some countries that feature crosses on their flags:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 12.25pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· >From 1000
until 1852 there were no Jews in Norway
because Jews and other non-Christians where banned from the country.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· With the
conclusion of the Danish Reformation in 1536, Jews and Catholics were
prohibited entry into Denmark.
Prior to that, no Jews seem to have lived in Denmark, and the attitude
was pretty much like that in (Danish-ruled) Norway:
“No non-Christians please.” In 1628, the presence of Portuguese Jews along the
lower Elbe (in today’s Northern
Germany) necessitated a legal amendment to give
residence permits to certain Jews in certain areas then under the Danish crown.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· In 1680 the
Jews of Stockholm petitioned the king that they be permitted to reside there
without abandoning their creed, but the application was denied because the
local consistory had refused to endorse it. On December 3, 1685, Charles XI
ordered the governor-general of the capital to see that no Jews were permitted
to settle in Stockholm and in any
other part of the country, "on account of the danger of the eventual
influence of the Jewish religion on the pure evangelical faith." In case
Jews were found in any Swedish community, they were to be notified to leave
within fourteen days. Jews and Muslims moving to Sweden
had to convert to Christianity to be allowed to stay. Swedish Jews that evaded
conversion received equal status with other Swedes as late as in 1910 (i.e. 100
years ago).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· Few Jews
moved to Iceland.
Those that did had to at least outwardly assimilate, such as by taking on
Icelandic names. In granting Icelandic residence permits during the Great
Depression in the 1930s, Christian Scandinavians and Germans were given preference
to Jews from the same countries. Even during and soon after World War II Jewish
refugees were not welcome in Iceland,
and the local press portrayed them as bothersome ragtag exotics that needed to
be kept out.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· Jews were
expelled from England
in 1290, following various attacks on them, especially the massacres of London and York
(1189–1190).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 5pt 24.5pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">· Jews were
banished from Swiss towns in the 1620s, and from 1776 they were allowed to
reside exclusively in two villages. Legal freedom was granted to all religious
communities in Switzerland
no earlier than in 1874.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">And then again...in the
heartland of catholicism, Italy,
there's the "goldene medinah" of Venice...where
Jews have prospered for almost 2000 years now. Goes to show christianity has
more than one face, I guess ;=)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Kind greetings,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Vexillology</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Quite so, Luc! Which actually
underlines the point I was trying to make. <br>
<br>
Disclaimer: I <b>love</b> the Nordic countries.<br>
<br>
People these days -- especially in other Protestant-dominated parts of Northern Europe -- have
a somewhat romantic mental image of the Nordic countries as being very tolerant and benevolent,
and they shrug off as meaningless the fact that their flags have Christian
crosses. I was trying to remind folks that this openness and benevolence does
not necessarily go back a long way, that non-Christians really were unwanted in
those parts even in recent history, and that those crosses are not necessarily
meaningless in everyone’s mind. Let me remind you of rising xenophobia and
Muslim-bating in Scandinavia
today. As I said, I have a soft spot for the Nordic countries, but I don’t wear
rose-colored glasses.<br>
<br>
Your point is well taken, Luc. Italy may not have been a bed of roses for
everyone, but the Italians, especially Northern Italians, have on the whole
been more welcoming of non-Christians than have most other European regions,
both Protestant- and Catholic-dominated, and so has Catholic-dominated Belgium
to a degree. Indeed, many Ashkenazi Jews from Catholic-dominated Austria
and Southern Germany found refuge in Venice,
Padua, Mantua
and other regions and cities of what is now Italy. (For instance, the Jewish Late
Renaissance composer Salamone Rossi was born into a Jewish German family in Mantua,
probably called Roth on arrival, <i>HaAdumim</i> האדומים<span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="AR-SA"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span></span> ‘the red ones’ in Hebrew. He is widely believed to have
perished when invading Austrian troops raided the ghettos of Mantua.) Furthermore, when Spain
and Portugal expelled their
Jews, Italy
offered refuge to many of them all over the country and there have been no
problems of note. And Italy does not have a cross on its flag.<br>
<br>
In Northern Europe this sort of openness was confined to small merchant-run
governments such as those of Amsterdam
and Hamburg.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle,
USA</p>
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