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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 02 August 2010 - Volume 05</b><br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (04)
[DE-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">From: M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">marless@gmx.de</span></a>> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="FR">Subject: LL-L "Language
politics" 2010.08.02 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">P.S. Marcus, you wrote:</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="DE">"Was erwartest du, sollte sich
ändern, wenn man fremdsprachige Prüfungen abschafft? Wer macht denn solche
Prüfungen? Ich würde zwei Gruppen erwarten: a) frische Neuankommlinge, die noch
nicht die Gelegenheit hatten, die einheimische Sprache zu lernen, b)
Hausfrauen, die in ihren Kontakten stets auf die Familie und Landsleute der
alten Heimat beschränkt waren und deshalb nie veranlasst waren, die
einheimische Sprache zu lernen."</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">This is funny, your ideas
seem quite plausible, but I was thinking of <em>young
men</em>. They are the most problematic group (in many respects :-)) --
and at the same time the group where the driving license is most valued. So
many people think the license would be a fine lever arm to bring them to the
books. Some even say a driving license should not be granted without a Hauptschul
graduation. This might rapidly bring down the rate of male school drop-outs,
not only those of migrant roots. -- As to your a), people who don't know what
Einbahnstraße means should really not be granted a driving license, I think; as
to your b) -- these women are the most eager to learn german and get on. I am
working as a computer and math teacher in migrants' integration and
training projects, you know, and have seen many classes of these gifted and
deeply frustrated women, exploding with accumulated eagerness to learn. No
problem <em>there</em>!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">But young men - even if they
are Hauptschul dropouts - usually _have_ visited a German school and are able
to speak German. Their German is not elaborate enough to satisfy the high-brow
Bildungsbürger but they should usually be able to take a driving test without
having problems in understanding the words. I'm actually quite sure that the
vast majority of the 18 year old males of Turkish descent living in Germany and who have lived in Germany for
several years (who are no newcomers) know the German word Einbahnstraße better
than the Turkish words tek yönlü yol. Einbahnstraßen are part of their daily
life while tek yönlü yol is just part of their Randwortschatz (what's that in
English? perhaps something like 'distant passive vocubulary'). That's also the
reason why nobody would take a Low Saxon driving test. Any info (laws,
regulations, instructions etc.) related to traffic will be in German. Doing the
test in Low Saxon is good for nothing, it just increases your chance to fail
the test: a single oddly translated technical term can make you misinterpret
the question. (That doesn't mean I am opposed to Low Saxon driving tests! I
would certainly support it if people had the choice. But to become meaningful
the laws, regulations, instructions etc. need to be available [and widely
distributed] in Low Saxon too.)<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (04)
[DE-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Some more thoughts that were
triggered by the discussion about driving tests:<br>
Does Low Saxon have a future? At the moment my answer certainly is: None at
all.<br>
<br>
Why is that? Low Saxon still has millions of speakers, that should be a good
base for survival, shouldn't it?<br>
The problem is that I can choose between German and Low Saxon as my favorite
language and as my personal relevant language but I cannot choose between
German and Low Saxon as my main language of coming to terms with life. If I
choose German as my personal language that's all I need to come to terms with
life. If I choose Low Saxon as my personal language I still need German to come
to terms with life. This imbalance creates a steady drain towards German. It's
just a matter of efficiency. Why purchase two units if one unit is enough to do
the job?<br>
<br>
The only way to rescue Low Saxon is to enable people to come to terms with life
with Low Saxon only. If a newborn child can go to a Low-Saxon-only
kindergarden, go to a Low-Saxon-only school, go to a Low-Saxon-only university,
enter a Low-Saxon-only job, cope with the authorities, agencies and
administration in Low Saxon (the Low Saxon driving test is part of it), buy
groceries in a Low-Saxon-labeled store, use a computer with all the relevant
programs localized in Low Saxon, consume Low Saxon media and die without ever
having learned German, then Low Saxon will have a future again. Low Saxon
cannot be rescued by cultural activists, artists and hobbyists, the language
can only be rescued if the state supports the language. Not by lip service and
fancy charters but with real money and real actions.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: Language politics<br>
<br>
Thanks for your interesting and, as usual, erudite and well thought out remarks,
Marcus. I personally think they have a lot of merit.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">I'm actually quite sure that the vast majority of the 18 year
old males of Turkish descent living in Germany
and who have lived in Germany
for several years (who are no newcomers) know the German word Einbahnstraße
better than the Turkish words tek yönlü yol. Einbahnstraßen are part of their
daily life while tek yönlü yol is just part of their Randwortschatz (what's
that in English? perhaps something like 'distant passive vocubulary').</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I would propose “marginal
(passive) vocabulary/lexicon” for <i>Randwortschatz</i>.<br>
<br>
This might be an acute problem only in cases of rarely used Turkish words of
Persian, Arabic or French derivation. The meaning of most purely Turkish constructions
tend to be quite transparent to Turkish speakers even at first encounter. This
applies in this case also: Turkish <i>tek yönlü yol</i> (one-way street,
literally “single directional way/road/street”, plural <i>tek yönlü yollar</i>).
But I’m sure you’re right as to usage. I have listened to German-born Turkish
young people talk amongst themselves. In Turkish they might very well use <i>Einbahnstaße</i>
(one-way street) as a loanword, and in German they might use Turkish
loanwords for things related to their Turkish-speaking sphere. (Since I only
visit once in a blue moon, it seems rather intriguing to me when all this is tinted
by a rather noticeable Hamburg
accent.)<br>
<br>
It is a matter of category. If they were talking about their adventure driving
during a visit to their ancestral town in Anatolia or Thrace, they
may very well use <i>tek yönlü yol</i>, while in a German context they are
likely to use <i>Einbahnstraße</i>. (I am not claiming that this is really so,
am just trying to illustrate what I have observed happening is such cases.)<br>
<br>
When my mother, who knew next to no English, visited me in Australia she insisted
on calling a bathroom shower <i>Shower</i> (or <i>Schauer</i>) in German rather
than using the usual German word <i>Dusche</i>. I suppose this is because showers
look and work slightly differently in Australia
and Germany.
Since the sound of <i>shower</i> is like that of German <i>Schauer</i> (“rain shower”)
there is a connection. So she exercised something that I would call “cultural contextualization”
in her choice of vocabulary. I believe -- nay, have observed -- that this is a common
phenomenon among immigrants.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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