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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 05 August 2010 - Volume 05</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mark Dreyer</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.03 (02)
[AF-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste At:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Onderwerp: LL-L</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ek wil nie hê dat u u inset oor die moontlikhede van Laag Saksies (liggende
Die Taal se ervaring) enigsins geringskat nie.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ons siening loop heelwat saam in die verband, en as ek die kultuurskat nie
voorgedruk het nie, glo net die Platssnakkers in volkseie verband kom blykbaar
nie enigsens kort nie (Hannelore o.a.)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Groete,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mark</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.05 (03)
[EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">From: M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">marless@gmx.de</span></a>></span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="FR">Subject: LL-L "Language
politics" 2010.08.04 (02) [EN]</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);" lang="FR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 13pt; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 13pt; color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">What Marcus wrote (3.8.) is cuttingly true, what Mark
Dreyer wrote (also 3.8.) comforts me a little more, because a lot of it has
been achieved already, such as compiling grammars and, in parts, dictionaries;
and more of what he writes can be achieved </span><em style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">without government support or
government money</em><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">. If we hope to bring Low Saxon on at all I fear we must
put up with having no official money or support. Now what exactly can be done
with private initiative only, and how effective can it be? If much of that may
have been said in former discussions, don't hesitate to repeat it. I may have
missed or forgotten. And we may distill it again and again on the fire of
Marcus' skepticism and Mark's and my enthusiasm... See what we get.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I'm sure you did not mean it
like that but I still want to point it out: I am not skeptical against private
initiative or anything. I'm just skeptical that it is enough without also using
other means. Please, nobody stop personal engagement! Arts, literature, reader
and discussion circles, Heimatliteratur, Döntjes and Vertellers, folk singers
and singer-songwriters, this is all important. We should also aim at
diversification, but that doesn't mean we should cut back any of the existing
things. But the most important part is that we become political. We need
something like the Occitan Anaram Au Patac (well, an left-right-neutral
movement would be even better to be mainstream-compatible than a socialist
movement like Anaram Au Patac, but the idea behind Anaram Au Patac is right),
we need something like the Catalan movement. We need shouting people, we need
people who get angry, we need people who go to jail, we need people like Èric
Bertran.<br>
<br>
Few politicians are so ethical that they do things cause doing it is 'right'.
They only do things under public pressure. No country ever granted a minority
independance or autonomy because it is the ethical right thing to allow them to
decide for themselves. They always had to fight.<br>
<br>
I do not strive for the independance of the Low Saxon regions, that would be
far, far, far, far off anything realistic. But judging from history
independance is the single most important thing at all. I do not approve of
violence, war or physical fight, but independance is so integral to the welfare
of a culture that I have a hard time to condemn anybody who resorts to violence
in the quest for independance. One example that illustrates the difference that
independance can make is the German/Swiss border region. On both sides of the
border the same Alemannic dialects are spoken. But on the German side of the
border the dialects are slowly replaced by Standard German as anywhere in Germany, while in Switzerland the dialects are fully
vital and everybody speaks it. The difference is really crass. Neighboring
villages divided by the border even when they are in steady contact day by day
handle dialect completely different. The only difference is that the Swiss have
made the dialect part of their national identity while the Germans have not.<br>
<br>
Another example is Luxembourg
which has made its Franconian dialect its national dialect. The dialects spoken
along the border in Germany
are exactly the same but they are dieing.<br>
<br>
Everybody knows Estonian, but who knows Mari, or Chuvash,
or Adyghe, or Kabardian? They are comparable in speaker numbers, but Estonia is a country while the other languages
are spoken in Russia.
If Estonia had become an
integral part of Russia
instead of being an independant Soviet Republic Estonian sure wouldn't have the
same status today.<br>
<br>
Independance for Low Saxon is far off, but we can strive for
institutionalization. Having institutions is a big step.<br>
<br>
We need something big hovering over the Low Saxon regions. An institution or a
cluster of institutions that can act as a nucleus for a big Low Saxon network.
At the moment we are scattered. There's no coordination. The Low Saxon people
do not speak with one tongue. There's a Heimatbund here and a Bundesrat there
and perhaps a Landschaft and an Institut, some mailing list and some hobbyists
but there's no flow of information among them. Much entropy, few organization.<br>
<br>
Please excuse if this post is a bit unassorted.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Language politics</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Marcus,</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What
you wrote makes a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Let
me just throw this question out to you and others for consideration ...<br>
<br>
Should there ever be a more coordinated political wing of the Low Saxon
language (re)assertion movement, do you think that playing the blame game with
the federal and state governments (the “You owe us” approach) would be worth
looking into?<br>
<br>
Growing up as part of the postwar generation in Hamburg I saw signs of conscious, concerted
efforts to discourage the use and learning of Low Saxon. We would read a few Low
Saxon ditties as part of <i>Heimatkunde</i> in school and that was about it.
And that got cut out at the first sign of budget problems. The attitude at that
time was that learning the language was a waste of time and was detrimental to youngsters’
education and career, also that refugee immigrants should not be burdened with
this for them strange language. Furthermore, there was a conscious effort to present
the language as a “dialect,” although early proponents like Klaus Groth had referred
to it as a language. <br>
<br>
So what I am saying is that there was a conscious effort to remove Low Saxon from
the scene. We had a school principal (Hermann Kesenberg) in our area who was a proponent
of Low Saxon, and he did in fact criticize the government for their attitude, which
of course fell on deaf ears.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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