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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 06 August 2010 - Volume 06<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Orthography"</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Paul,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">From: Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</span></a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2010.08.05 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Strange that all the island Lowlands have lost the
"k", and as far as I know, all the mainland varieties have kept it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">It would be interesting to know when we lost it; spelling isn't
much use since we still write it today. If I had to guess, I'd say
Chaucer pronounced it and Shakespeare didn't, but that would be complete
speculation.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">First a referral to an older
post,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610D&L=LOWLANDS-L&P=R2734" target="_blank">Item #14029 (25 Oct 2006 15:04) - LL-L 'Phonology' 2006.10.25
(09) [E]</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">in which you can see that
until the early 18th century, English writers compared the phonetic value with
hn, tn, dn or n. So it did survive the Norman invasion. Maybe only in plain
English and not in its upmarket variety.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">The original sound is
difficult to represent graphically. Some Brabantish has:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"tnien" for
"knee" (E), "knie" (D)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"tnuëp" for
"knoop" (D), "knot" (E)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"tnajnseln" for
hypothetic "knijnselen", to gnaw at something (bone, apple...)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"tnekken" for "knakken" (D), "to crack" (E)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">even "tnootn" for
"knoken" (D) ~ "knuckle" (E)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Flemish still has the sound
too I reckon, 'cause I remember a friend of mine from the coastal city of Knokke, pronounce his
hometown as "Tnokke" (with a glottal stop for -kk-). Fact is that the
initial -t- is not a -t- as we know it, the sound coincides more or less with a
sudden puff of air, released in the back of one's mouth, and then escaping via
the nose. Voiceless, even though the vocal cords seem to be involved in
producing that airblast.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Guess that in English the
sound eventually disappeared because it was considered substandard.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Kind greetings,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: Orthography<br>
<br>
Luc’s posting above arrived a second after the last one on this topic.<br>
<br>
It reminded me that in Low Saxon, too, we have this supposed sequence /tn/, albeit
never in initial position, e.g. <i>buten</i> (“buutn”) ‘outside’.<br>
<br>
However, I still argue that the apparent allophone of /t/ in these cases is really
the mentioned “nasal stop”. You can’t say it any other way.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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