<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-alt:"ＭＳ 明朝";
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Mincho";
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-1610612033 1757936891 16 0 131231 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
span.gi
{mso-style-name:gi;}
span.gd
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 10 August 2010 - Volume 04<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</span></a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</span></a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (03) [NL]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com" target="_blank">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>>
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">2. Hoe maken ze het in de Nedersaksische varieteiten in Nederland?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: navy;"><br>
Material for this question can be found at</span><span style="font-family: Arial;">
<a href="http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html" target="_blank"><http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html></a>.
There is indeed a very clear isogloss between Frankish and Saxon in the maps.
The Saxon area of the Netherlands
has '-(e)n' while the Frankish area of the Netherlands mostly has '-e'
(although West Flemish and some other smaller regions have '-(e)n').<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL">3. Is deze ontwickeling van het suffix
van [ɘn] tot [ɘ] wellicht (taal-)wetmatig? - Is de (Hoog- en Laag-)Noorduitse
uitspraak [ɘn] of [n] alleen de volg van 400 jaar dressuur in
Standaard-(Hoog-)Duits, die in het algemeene meer in het Noorden heeft bewerkt
dan in het Zuiden van Duitsland?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">The 'vowel + n' suffix is
proto-Germanic. '-en' is a reduced form of the proto-Germanic original and '-e'
is an even more reduced form.<br>
<br>
Material about the modern forms on German territory can be found at <a href="http://diwa.info/" target="_blank"><http://diwa.info/></a>.<br>
The maps show that the area from the Rhineland to Alemannia has '-e' or '-a'
while the Low Saxon regions, Upper Saxony and Bavaria have '-(e)n'. In the Netherlands the isogloss almost perfectly
matched the Saxon/Frankish border, but in Germany the isogloss leaves the
border and runs through Frankish areas.<br>
<br>
The answer to your question is thus, that '-(e)n' is the original form that was
valid for Low Saxon at any time. '-e' is an innovation restricted to the
regions along the Rhine. There was no
particular influence of the German standard language.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;">1. Is de verwandeling van het suffix "-en" in [ɘ] ook
Algemeen Beschaaft Nederlands (ABN)?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">I don't speak Dutch, so
don't cite me on it, but I guess the official ABN requires '-en'. But most of
the dialects the standard is based on use '-e' so '-e' became a variant fully
accepted in spoken language. (Just like '-ik' and '-ich' are both accepted
pronunciations of written '-ig' in standard German.)<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a></span><span style="font-family: Arial;">> Subject: Language varieties<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Het weglaten van het [n] in het suffix -en is ook een overheersende
kenmerk van de Nedersaksische dialecten van Oost-Pommeren (West-Pruisen), met
inbegrip van de Plautdietsch-dialecten van de Mennonieten (Doopsgezinde).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Kunnen we vermoeden dat dit is een kenmerk, dat werd ingevoerd door
immigranten uit Nederfrankisch-sprekende gebieden?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">I cannot rule it out, but I don't think so. The region that is generally
assumed to be influenced by Dutch and Flemish settlers the most is Brandenburg. Brandenburg doesn't have
'-e'. Pomerania and Prussia
which both have '-e' are less influenced by Dutch. I don't know about any
particular Dutch influence on Prussia
at all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
Marcus Buck</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a></span><span style="font-family: Arial;">> <br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot, Marcus.<br>
<br>
Here’s another shot in the dark of mine ...<br>
<br>
Do you think there is a possibility of Western Flemish and Zealandic being influenced
by Saxon? There has been talk of Saxons, who began haunting the Continental and
British North Sea coasts well before settling in Britain,
settled on the coasts of what are now Belgium
and adjacent parts of the Southern Netherlands and Northern
France.<br>
<br>
Of course, this common <i>-n</i> thing in Western Flemish, Zealandic and Saxon could
very be coincidence. But there are other common features, such as /peird/ <i>peyrd</i> (vs Hollandic
<i>paard</i>) for ‘horse’.<br>
<br>
Just wondering ...<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-family: Arial;">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></a><br>
=========================================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>