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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 11 August 2010 - Volume 04<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Language varieties"</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Marcus,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy; text-decoration: none;">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Do you think there is a possibility of Western Flemish and
Zealandic being influenced by Saxon? There has been talk of Saxons, who began
haunting the Continental and British North Sea coasts well before settling in Britain, settled on the coasts of what are now Belgium and adjacent parts of the Southern
Netherlands and Northern France.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"><br>
Of course, this common <i>-n</i> thing in Western Flemish, Zealandic
and Saxon could very be coincidence. But there are other common features, such
as /peird/ <i>peyrd</i> (vs Hollandic <i>paard</i>) for ‘horse’.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Perhaps there are influences but I don't think this is one of them.
'-en' is the original form and '-e' the innovation. So '-en' in Western
Flemish, Zealandic and Saxon is just a common lack of innovation.<br>
<br>
'peerd' vs. 'paard' is the same. 'ee' is the more original form and 'aa' is a
Hollandic innovation. One could think that 'paard' is a reflection of the Latin
source 'paravederus' which has 'a', but with forms like 'waard' and 'haard'
which clearly never had an 'a' historically the more logical explanation is
that 'paard' is from an earlier Dutch word 'peerd' (which indeed is attested in
older Dutch). The Western Flemish/Saxon similarities are again just common lack
of innovation.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You're right about the
conservative nature of peripheral dialects. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In my opinion, along the
North Sea coast, there may have been a dialect continuum from Northern France
to Denmark
before the Völkerwanderung. Mostly Frisian, here and there with pockets of
Saxons. Then the Völkerwanderung started in earnest and when the Franks moved
down the Rhine to the West, they actually hit
upon this Frisian wall, finally driving a wedge in it, splitting the Southwest
from the Northeast for good. This particular marriage of Frankish on a Frisian
substrate then gave rise to Hollandish. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In cultural terms though,
Hollandish didn't get popular right away. First the cultural center of gravity
was in Flanders for centuries, then in Brabant and finally in Holland in the 17th century. The central
dialects of Brabant, and especially Holland,
have always been more innovative than others, mainly because they acted like
secular and religious power carriers, compared with southwestern and
northeastern dialects, traditionally having a more agricultural user base.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Even today, it's pretty
obvious that most of the innovation within Dutch Belgian dialects radiates from
Antwerp. Viewed
from the South, Antwerp behaves like an outpost
of the "Randstad"...even though few, if any, Antwerp locals will acknowledge this.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Which brings me to another
feature that Western Flemish may have in common with Saxon. Speakers from Holland (and Antwerp
by extension ;=)) often not only tend to speak loud, but also...a lot. In Lower
Saxony, I had the impression that just like in Western
Flanders, natives were more silent and often kept a low profile.
Then again, this may also have something to do with the contrast between city
dwellers and countrypeople. However, when I was in Helsinki
(OK, maybe not exactly the Lowlands, but still
a capital), folks were speaking very slowly and very quietly. If ever, they
spoke, that is ;=). I guess our man in Helsinki,
Antero, may know the reason why.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Kind greetings,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: Joachim
<<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL-L "Language
varieties" 2010.08.11 (04) [NL-EN]</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Op 11.08.10 19:27, schreef <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Helge Tietz</span>: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">a small village near Bordesholm in the Rendsborg district which is
also called Brugge (although in German spelling with the Umlaut). Heist
(Knokke-Heist) is another example, which also exists in Holsten. Perhaps it
would be interesting to investigate whether even more place-names share
similarities.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Niet te vergeten: Osnabrügge!<br>
<br>
Terloops hartelijk dank, Luc, Marcus & Ron, voor jullie voorlichtingen
betrocken het suffix-"e(n)" in Nederland!<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx:</span><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL">Ge schreeft: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 1in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">1. Is de
verwandeling van het suffix "-en" in [</span></span><span style="font-family: "MS Gothic"; color: navy;" lang="NL">ɘ</span><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL">] ook Algemeen Beschaaft Nederlands
(ABN)?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL"> Zeker. Komt doordat ABN toch
vooral beïnvloed is geweest door de centrale (= Frankische) dialecten van de
Lage Landen. Brabants en Hollands zijn per slot van rekening (Neder-)
Frankische dialecten. Als je wil horen hoe de "Rheinische Fächer" in
deze context een rol spelen, klik hier:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><a href="http://gaer27.uni-trier.de/CLL/Sequenz6/start.htm" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;" lang="NL">http://gaer27.uni-trier.de/CLL/Sequenz6/start.htm</span></a></span><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Over deze webstek kwam ik ook tegen "Niederländisch/Niederdeutsch
(Venlo)": "Et gebeurde in daen tied", de kerstbootschap in
Venlo-Laaglands, grondig voordelig, ook vanwege de nabijheid met Westfaals! Maar
het schijnt dat deze deel, juist nadat ik hen opropen had, er uitgenomen is.<br style="">
<br style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">
</span></p>
<pre style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style="" lang="NL">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«</span></pre><pre style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style="" lang="NL">joachim</span></pre><pre style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">
<span style="" lang="NL">--</span></pre><pre style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span style="" lang="DE">Kreimer-de Fries</span></pre><pre><span style="" lang="DE"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</span></span></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
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