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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
<b>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 August 2010 - Volume 04<br>
</b><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="FR">http://lowlands-l.net/</span></a><br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L
"Etymology" 2010.08.27 (01) [DE-EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Arial;">From: M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;">marless@gmx.de</span></a>><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: times new roman,serif;"><span style="color: navy;">a Platt friend just asked me this:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;"><strong><span style="color: navy;">Hün un Perdün</span></strong><span style="color: navy;">
heißt wohl: "alles Mögliche, dies und das" - aber vielleicht auch: "Krethi
und Plethi, Hinz und Kunz"? Ich vermute, der Ursprung ist französisch, aus
der Besatzungszeit. Weißt Du etwas darüber?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">I have learned "Hühn un Perdühn" to mean "Krethi un
Plethi", but as to the origin I have no idea, has anybody else? Can
it have anything to do with chicken ("Hühn")?</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext;">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Indeed, Low
Saxon <i>Hüün un Perdüün</i> (“properly” spelled) means something like English
“the whole caboodle” or “kit and caboodle,” and, as I tend to use it quite
often, it can also mean “everybody and their uncle’ or “Tom, Dick and Harry.”</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">I too used to
suspect it came from French loanwords or was another example of mock French
that Low Saxon liked to create (e.g. <i>Fisematenten</i>, <i>Schisslaweng</i>).
Apparently, it is still possible that there is a French connection. But it
looks as though Low Saxon got <i>Hüün un Perdüün</i> from (Middle?) Dutch
sailors’ language: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="color: navy;">Hüün</span></b><span style="color: navy;"> <<i> hune</i> (> <i>huun?)</i>
‘crow’s nest’ (Mastkorb)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="color: navy;">Perdüün</span></b><span style="color: navy;"> < <i>perduun</i> ‘guy rope’, ‘mooring
rope’ (Haltetau)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
I think Ron is right. In the "Korrespondenzblatt des Vereins für
niederdeutsche Sprachforschung" (this "correspondency gazette"
is basically the 19th century precursor of mailing lists ;-) ) volumes XVIII,
XIX, XXI (1896-1900) there were some contributions about the phrase. The
plausible conclusion of Fr. Bachmann, v. XXI, p. 52, was that the phrase indeed
has the origin Ron mentioned. His opinion is based on the works of John
Brinckman, who in his "Kasper-Ohm" wrote: "Un denn - sär ik -
wad de Slacht bi Abukir voer Eicha upführt un dat frensche Admiralschip mit
Kummoduhre Brüheisen voer Eicha sien sichtlichen Oogen mit Himp un Hamp un Hühn
un Pardühn up de Ballaststähr in de Luft sprengt". ("And then - I
said - the battle of Abukir will be performed in front of Eicha and at the
ballast quay the French admiral's ship with Commodore Brüheisen aboard will be
blown up in the air with "Himp un Hamp un Hühn un Pardühn" [in it's
entirety] right before Eicha's eyes") Bachmann quotes two more occurences
in Brinckman's book, both related to ships. He concludes that it is a metaphor
from the language of seamans meaning "the whole ship", which has
developed a wider scope meaning "the entirety of something" in general
language. All three occurences in Brinckman's book describe losses of ships, so
it seems plausible that the phrase refers to sinking ships. Mooring ropes and
the crow's nest will be the last parts that will be visible when a ship sinks
and thus "mit Hüün un Perdüün" would mean a total loss of the ship.<br>
<br>
By the way, I don't think that "Fisematenten" and
"Schisslaweng" are "mock French". They are more likely just
so far away from their original meaning that the French source cannot be
decided. There was a period called "alamodic age" in German history
when French culture had a strong impact on German culture (especially the
culture at the courts of German princes [Fürsten]). The Low Saxon writer Johann
Lauremberg wrote his book "Veer Schertzgedichte" about this period
and critized it. At the courts many people preferred to speak French in this
period and many city citizens used French phrases in their daily language.
Small people had no idea about the original meaning of these phrases, but on
occasion they tried to copy them. Because these people had absolutely no idea
about the original meaning they could evolve and take on meanings that were
very far apart from the meaning of the French source.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
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