<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 November 2010 - Volume 05<br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
=====================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: William Paterson
<<a href="mailto:wm.paterson@ymail.com">wm.paterson@ymail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL - "Orthography"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 191);">I've read that the British value vocabulary, pronunciation
(Received Standard), and something else, whereas Americans value spelling and
grammar (it seems to me the Americans had a third item as well). Can anyone
elaborate on this, confirm or deny it, based either on scholarship or personal
experience?</span> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">
As an American from the Philadelphia
area, it seems to me that Americans do value spelling, though many of us
are not especially good at it. It could be that spelling is so valued because
so few of us have a strong foundation in formal grammar, which seems scarcely
even taught these days. (I'm twenty-eight years old, and despite attending what
was considered one of the better public schools in the area, I was never taught
how to parse a sentence, and learned there only a very basic level of formal
grammar.) It could be that spelling is so valued because so few of us have a
strong foundation in formal grammar, and w</span>hereas
spelling can be picked up incidentally through reading, I think a formal,
articulable understanding of grammar requires deliberate attention to
study. Despite the attention to spelling, though, Americans<span style="color: black;"> are pretty tolerant of "creative" spellings in
marketing.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Despite the lack of formal
grammar, a lot of people do seem to get pretty worked up about grammar here. In
particular, the double-negative and "ain't" seem especially scorned -
and in general, it seems to me that the constructions that suffer the most
disdain are common in African American Vernacular English (or whatever one may
like to call it). I think that the vast majority of Americans have little
understanding of language contact and change, and do not realize that AAVE is a
legitimate mode of expression, and instead tend to think that it just reflects
a failure to "learn English properly" - and, sadly, the cause
attributed may range from lack of proper educational resources to downright
racial inferiority. I think that in many cases the disdain for AAVE is in
reality a disdain for the people who speak it, which just manifests as a love
of proper and ordered grammar, or something of the sort. That said, I do not
think that <em>most</em> Americans are
racist - but I do think most hold strong linguistic prejudices. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">However, despite the
fixation with grammar, some features of "proper" grammar now tend to
seem very pedantic to most Americans (of course this is a natural development),
and are very frequently ignored, especially in speech and informal writing like
text messaging or email. For instance, one is far more likely to hear,
"What are you looking at?" than, "At what are you looking?"
The latter, frankly, feels ridiculous. And the who/whom
distinction is observed by very few, these days. I think very few
Americans would judge others for using what feel like the more natural forms in
these cases.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In terms of pronunciation,
Philadelphia speech deviates a fair deal from what one hears in the national
media, and I do not think people generally attach much significance to
pronunciation, except as it bears on:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">1. The speaker's
geographical or ethnic origin, and</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">2. A misapprehension of the
spelled form (like the pronunciation mischiev-ee-ous).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In the north, a southern
accent may be taken as a negative marker, and I imagine the reverse may be true
in the south. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">As a final note, having
grown up a mere twenty minutes away from Philadelphia, in its Southern New
Jersey suburbs (South Jersey, we call it), I always thought I had a
Philadelphia accent, but according to my wife, when I get angry, I "get
all Jersey" and apparently my accent shifts. This came as a surprise to me,
and is still hard to believe, as I cannot hear any difference.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Bill Paterson</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Orthography" 2010.11.04 (04) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Not a Learned Lowlander
myself, but I'll throw in my two penn'orth.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Our standard spelling,
punctuation etc are in deed only a few centuries old. So is the vast
majority of our mathematical notation, and all the rules of any modern sport or
game. And all for the same reason: as you reach or interact with more
people with your ideas and concepts, the more important it becomes that
everyone follows what you are doing or talking about.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Thair is no reezun y u cahnt
spel or rite wot u wont. The problem is people spend more time looking at
your idiosyncratic spelling, grammar and punctuation than thinking
about what you're trying to say - assuming they can even work
out what you are trying to say. Which is fine if you're intended
statement is "I am not bound by your rules", but counterproductive if
you are trying to get ideas across.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I see three main problems
with most reformed spellings:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">1) The attempts to be
"rational" eliminate any ability to separate homophones, other than
by context ("beer/bier, hoarse/horse, bow/bough etc.).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">2) For those of us with an
interest in the history and relationships of languages, it cuts us off
from our roots and connections. The fact that
"daughter" no longer sounds a lot like "Tochter" or
"dogter", but retains a visual link, is interesting to me, and
potentially useful.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">3) If you are going to be
phonetic, whose pronunciation are you going to pick as
"correct"? Or is every accent type in the English language
going to have it's own spelling? fine if you are promoting regional
identity, but it kind of limits the potential readership of your novel.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Much of the argument for
reform is that some people find it hard or confusing; given the vast volume of
English literature and the huge number of people who read it, it can't be that
difficult.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Paul </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Orthography"</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Theo,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Tomas, please, install an email spelling program.<br>
And if explorer doesn't has one, Firefox can help you.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Zuiderlingen werpen meestal
wat minder met stenen dan noorderlingen (tenzij ze misschien héél ver weg in
het zuidoosten wonen ;=)...misschien is dat onze katholieke aard
wel...maar...euh...heeft je spellingchecker (of is het spellingschecker?) dat
vijfde woord in je tweede zin opgemerkt?</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Toch met vriendelijke
groeten,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration: none;">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></a><br>
=========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>