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L O W L A N D S - L - 13 December 2010 - Volume 02<br>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">M.-L. Lessing</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.12.13 (01)
[EN-NDS]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Leve Marcus, ik heff nu de
Saak verstahn (denk ik :-)) un graleer to de prima Ressource, de Du da
trechtmaakt hest! </span></p>
<p style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">Marlou</span><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: Marcus
Buck <<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">list@marcusbuck.org</span></a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Subject: LL-L
"Language varieties" 2010.12.12 (01) [EN-NDS]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Perhaps I should give some info on how the site works:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.12.13 (01)
[EN-NDS]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Though I don’t want to come across as nitpicking, I suggest that in
the process of sound shifts you consider the issue of the so-called “dragging
tone” (<i>Schleifton</i>, <i>sleeptoon</i>). This feature continues in many
dialects, certainly among native speakers, and I would consider it a shame if
it fell by the wayside.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
<i><span style="color: navy;">Söög</span></i><span style="color: navy;"> (actually <i>Sœg’</i>
or <i>Soeg’</i>) ‘sow’ is a good example. Generally, dropping of the final <i>–e</i>
causes an extra-long monophthong or diphthong, and final devoice cannot apply.
In other words, in more conservative dialects it’s not pronounced [</span><span style="color: navy;">zøːç</span><span style="color: navy;">] or [</span><span style="color: navy;">zœːç</span><span style="color: navy;">] but </span><span style="color: navy;">[zøːˑɣ</span><span style="color: navy;">] or [</span><span style="color: navy;">zœːˑɣ</span><span style="color: navy;">]. This is also why it is not <i>Sääch</i>
but <i>Sääj</i> in Plautdietsch.<br>
<br>
As indicated above, <i>Söög</i> (actually <i>Sœg’</i> or <i>Soeg’</i>)
‘sow’ has a long (actually extra-long) monophthong). It is not <i>Söög</i> as pronounced
*[</span><span style="color: navy;">zœˑɪç</span><span style="color: navy;">] or *[</span><span style="color: navy;">zɔˑɪç</span><span style="color: navy;">] (the latter of which would be written *<i>Seug</i> ~ <i>*Seuch</i>
or *<i>Säug</i> ~*<i>Säuch</i>). My point is that all authentic dialects still
distinguish the monophthong-diphthong pairs [</span><span style="color: navy;">øː</span><span style="color: navy;">] ~ [</span><span style="color: navy;">œː</span><span style="color: navy;">] <> [</span><span style="color: navy;">œˑɪ</span><span style="color: navy;">] ~ [</span><span style="color: navy;">ɔˑɪ</span><span style="color: navy;">], and [</span><span style="color: navy;">eː</span><span style="color: navy;">] ~ [</span><span style="color: navy;">ɛː</span><span style="color: navy;">] <> [</span><span style="color: navy;">ɛ ˑɪ</span><span style="color: navy;">] ~ [</span><span style="color: navy;">aˑɪ</span><span style="color: navy;">]. The founders of the German-based
orthography suggested writing the letters for long monophthongs with an <i>ogonek</i>
(ę) but this is typographically inconvenient in the case of <i>ö</i>.
Therefore, it is more common to write them <i>ä(ä)</i> and <i>oe</i> ~ œ<i>.</i>
However, most people don’t bother, and this accounts for learners’
mispronunciation. (In a forthcoming publication I use an under-dot rather than
an <i>ogonek</i> (since the latter is associated with nasalization in the
orthographies of several other languages).</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">This could easily be done by
just minimally changing three lines in the conversion tables of my orthography
engine. My conversion engine consists of two parts, the actual sound shifts and
orthography. The distinctions you are speaking of are present in the sound
shift conversion engine (it wouldn't even work if they weren't), they are only
lost in the orthography engine.<br>
<br>
However, I have chosen to use Sass as my default orthography (not because I
like it that much, I too have my issues with it, but it's the most established
orthography we have) and the Fehrs-Gilde intentionally dropped the distinction.
Not because they deemed it useless, but because none of the people who actually
wrote in Low Saxon at the time cared to make the distinction. I will stick with
that and I won't throw in yet another idiosyncratic orthography. (Well,
actually, perhaps I _will_ do that at some time in the future, but if I do so
it won't be Sass, but newly designed from scratch.) But that doesn't mean that
there will be no help for learners. I am planning to include IPA in the
entries. My conversion engine is versatile enough to render entries in "IPA
orthography". I have to make some adaptions and fix some minor issues
before IPA can go live, but it's entirely possible and doable.<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck</p>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: R. F. Hahn
<<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Thanks, Marcus. I understand what you are saying. I don’t want to belabor this much
further. However, let me just put it to you that Sass himself suggested that these
orthographic devices be used.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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