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L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2010 - Volume 01<br>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "Language survival" 2010.12.17 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: Sandy
Fleming <<a href="http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fleemin@live.co.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">fleemin@live.co.uk</span></a>> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">Subject: LL-L
"Language survival" 2010.12.16 (02) [EN] </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">"If you
can't cope with the translation or rewrite (of technical terms), then the
question doesn't arise. You only have the option of offering languages that you
are capable producing it in." </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Surely
the argument for using these alternative languages is so that they acquire a
scientific literature? You could be completely fluent in Faroese, but if there
is no word for particular term (because all the other Faroese experts in the
field write papers in English), you've either got to completely invent a new
one, or "Faroe-ise" the Graeco-Latin word. Most native English
speakers aren't experts in English grammar and linguistics, and I assume that
goes for other languages too. So our hypothetical Faroese agricultural
economist is in the position of having to become an expert, or find one. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As
I say, appealing (I'd love to see an article on geotechnical engineering with a
translation in Frisian), but people are just too busy in most technical
disciplines. "Just and excuse", as you point out, but when you've got
5 days worth of stuff to do in four days, something's going to get dropped, and
I rather suspect that this idea will be first in the firing line! </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
"dealangeam" <<a href="mailto:atdelange@iburst.co.za">atdelange@iburst.co.za</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
LL_L "Language survival" [AF-EN]</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Laaglanders,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ek is baie bly dat Ron die Akademie se verklaring toegelaat het. Ek
praat nie namens die akademie nie en het niks te doen met die akademie nie. Ek
was besig met navorsing oor die uitsterf van tale toe ek by die verklaring
uitkom.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Piet Bult skryf:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"Van de Afrikaanse spraoke (en polletiek) weet ik vusen te min om
daor een zinnig woord over te zeggen,..."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Piet:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Hier in Suid Afrika vervies die Afrikaners van die Kaapprovinsie hulle
dikwels vir die Afrikaners in die noorde met hulle "gepraot" in plaas
van "gepraat". Hulle dink dit is aanstellerig. Maar dit is net nog 'n
bewys van Nederduits (Overysels, Agterhoeks, ....) in Afrikaans.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Jy skryf ook:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"Tja, en awwe et dan zels al niet doen...."</p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ai, daardie woordjie "Tja". 60 jaar gelede was dit dikwels
hier in die noorde gebruik. Ek het 20 jaar laas die woord gehoor, maar gebruik
dit nog so nou en dan. Gewoonlik word ek aan gekyk asof ek snaaks wil wees.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Paul Bates wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"When I lived in SA there was a tendency for Rand Afrikaans and Pretoria Universities in particular to present
the occasional paper in Afrikaans at conferences, but it was recognised that it
was more or less a political requirement."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Paul, somewhere there is a misconception. What you think is a
"political </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">requirement", was the last burning ambers of a passion _ reporting </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">scientific findings in Afrikaans so that it could compete with English,
German and French as a language good enough for even scientific reports.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Sadly, in 1975 MC Botha (a minister of the ruling National Party) did
issue a policy that Afrikaans will become the medium of instruction in black
schools. Rather following the route of court to undo it, the ANC incited
schoolchildren to overturn it by riots _ known as the Soweto riots of 1976.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(For the record. I resigned from the NP in 1965.)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">There was no referendum on this ruling. It was cooked up by a secret
society called the Broederbond. They were the masters of the NP. Most whites
were against this ruling because they firmly believed in mother tongue
education. But they also believed that riots was not a civilised way to correct
wrongs. They had to choose and they chose civil order rather than mother tongue
education for black pupils.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You also wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"There are any number of ways to preserve your language; scientific
literature surely isn't one of them, unless you specifically don't want to be
reviewed or cited by the community at large."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">The history of science since Copernicus show a quite different
perspective. The great majority of scientists wrote in Latin because of a
millenium old tradition. But during the middle 1700's, Europeans began to
publish in their own languages like German, French and English.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Only after World War I (WWI) English began to dominate the
"scientific community" in all "field of expertise". I
personally think (but may be wrong) that much of it had to do with the
Anglo_Boer war (1899_1902). </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mike Wintzer wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"English could be the saviour of all the other languages of the
world, if it would become a lingua franca in the the form of a SECOND language
foreverybody, giving the first languages, big or small, the needed breathing
space.”</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mike, that appears to be the solution. But it works only in a country
which has only two cultures identified by their languages, one which is not
English.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">When a country has more than two cultures, each with its own language,
these cultures die off one after the other. It seems to be in line with
Darwinian evolution - survival of the fittest. But should one of the languages
be colonial like Portugese, Spanish, French, Dutch, Italian and German, it is
rather like the invasion of an alien plant or animal species.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Many people became aware of the havoc caused by an alien natural species
only after WWII. Sadly, few people are aware that what applies to nature, also
applies to culture.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">To prevent this alien invasion, i would suggest the associative pattern
X*Y*Z of wholeness. The Y is the commuter or umlomo (Zulu for mouth-piece).
Simpler said, what is needed is a trilingual education system:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(lingua_franca)*(mother_tongue)*(other-indigenous_language)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">It worked in South
Africa since 1925 (when Afrikaans became the
second official language) up to perhaps 1970. But it did not work well because:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(1) it was never enacted by law for the whole country</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(2) human vices/greeds destroying the respect for other cultures . </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Elsie Zinsser skryf:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"At, ons kan
kerm en kla oor die tekort an akademiese werk in Afrikaans </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">maar terwyl die ondersteuningsbasis stadig maar seker wegkalwe ..."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Elsie, jy kyk die werklikheid vierkantig in die oe. Baie dankie.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Maar 'n mens moet buite die vierkant kyk na wat die oorsake is. Dit is
menslike sugte ("vices", "greeds") soos magsug, hebsug,
eersug, selfsug, wraaksug, gemaksug, .... Hierdie sugte dryf die "global
culture" in politiek, ekonomie, wetenskap, tegnologie, kuns, sport,
ensovoorts.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Die oplossing sal nooit gevind word met die soort denke wat die probleem
veroorsaak het nie. Einstein was terdeë daarvan bewus. Ons moet die antwoord
soek op 'n hoer vlak van denke. Dit behels vir my sake soos vryheid,
self_verwesentliking, skeppery ("creativity"), respek, regverdigheid
en drifte ("passions").</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Wat betref jou opmerkings dat die ANC die geleerdes wil terug dwing Suid
Afrika toe, net twee gedagtes:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(1) Die ANC van vandag en die ANC van Mandela van 20 jaar gelede verskil
soos dag van nag. Ek verstom my dat die res van die wêreld dit nie kan eien nie. Maar hier
in Suid Afrika begin al hoe meer mense van alle kulture se oe oop gaan, </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(2) Dwang is die mees sluwe vorm van miskenning van vryheid. Openlike
oorlog sou meer aanvaarbaar wees. Maar ons De lange familie koester sedert Hans
Dons (my voorvader 5 geslagte terug) 'n familie waarde - probleme word nie
opgelos deur bloed te laat vloei nie.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Soos wat die "global culture" groei, groei terrorisme ook. Nou
wil meeste lande elk skielik teen terrorisme veg met die VSA voor in die koor.
Maak eers 'n plan om die verwoestende gevolge wat die "global
culture" op inheemse kulture het, begin die skades reg te stel en
terrorisme sal verdwyn. Probeer eerder ‘n oop-gesprek as bloed-lating om mense
te oortuig.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Sandy Fleming write:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"There's a third option, which is to make it available in both
languages."</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">This is a very good option. But first we will have to solve the greeds
of global culture. Even the ANC became a victim of it once Mandela retired. The
result is that our civil services is going down the drain. </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">What is worse, the ANC is now seriously considering a law that any
leaking of information (which will point to them) may be classified (by them)
as secret information. Anyone who leaks such information, will be punished
harsher than rapists and murderers.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mooi loop</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">At de Lange</p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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