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L O W L A N D S - L - 08 March - Volume 01<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: "dealangeam"
<<a href="mailto:atdelange@iburst.co.za">atdelange@iburst.co.za</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammer" [EN-AF]</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Laaglanders,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ron wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">The use of “different” (or verschiedene) with numerals seems
justified if it emphasized that the items are of different types (as opposed to
being identical); e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">* She baked three different cakes.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;"> (= She baked three different types of cakes.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">But in most cases the use of this structure seems ungrammatical;
e.g.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">* There are four different languages in Switzerland.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">First of all, most Afrikaans
speakers from all walks of life will say:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">* Sy het drie verskillende
koeke gebak.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">* Daar is twaalf
verskillende (inheemse) tale in Suid Afrika.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Secondly, the use of
different ("verskillend") involves an unspoken habit (convention): no
categorisation is implied. Should we say:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">There are four types of
languages in South Africa.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"Daar is vier soorte
tale in Suid Afrika".</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">the majority Afrikaans
speakers will understand that it refers to the (1) Xhoisan, (2) European, (3)
Banthu and (4) Asian languages.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Only a few people, even in
the hey-days of Apartheid (separatism) would say:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">There are twelve separate
languages in South Africa.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"Daar is twaalf aparte
(afsonderlike) tale in Suid Afrika".</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Please note that i only
describe MY observations. I will not offer explanations for these observations.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mooi loop</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">At de Lange</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mike Morgan</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (04) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I think maybe Kevin hit on
WHY different is used even where it would not make sense (and I disagree
slightly with Ron; I think it is an issue of semantics NOT
grammaticality)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
> The word “separate” can sometimes be used the same way.<br>
> - I spoke with him on five separate occasions.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I think
(perhaps)</span> there has been a confusion/conflation
of "different" and "separate"... and so
"different" has come, in the colloquial at least, to be used where
only "separate" makes "sense".<br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">mwm || U C > || mike ||
мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)<br>
===========================================================<br>
Senior Consultant<br>
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics<br>
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India<br>
===========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">"I have
become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one<br>
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will <br>
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">"I spoke to him on five
different occasions" would imply, to me, that they weren't all on the same
day, or in the same context. It might typically be followed by "and
he still did nothing about it". It provides an emphasis (and in
this case, stronger criticism) than "..on five occasions" would.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Paul </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Brooks, Mark</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.07 (02) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ron asked: “But what about
the now frequent colloquial use of “different” where it is redundant?”</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I meant to include that
usage as well. Four languages in Switzerland certainly are different
without having to say so, but I understand the word “different,” redundant tho
it is, to intensify or call out, so to speak, their distinctions.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mark Brooks </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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