<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 11 March - Volume 04<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: Joachim
<<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL-L
"Grammar" 2011.03.11 (04) [NL]<br>
<br>
Beste Piet, Ron & Laaglanders,<br>
<br>
Op 10.03.11 00:34, schreef Piet Bult <<a href="mailto:info@stellingwerfs-eigen.nl" target="_blank">info@stellingwerfs-eigen.nl</a>>
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">O, o, o... </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Dat is dan niet zo best
steld in et Duuts-Neddersassies..;-)<br>
Et Grunnings bruukt (in VT; verleden tied) nog wel: ik bakde, du
bakdest, hai bakde, wie bakden.<br>
En in et Stellingwarfs zeggen wi'j (in TT; tegenwoordige tied) ok nog altied:
ik bakke, e.z.v.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">En R. F. Hahn antwoordde:<br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Warüm seggst du: “niet so
best steld”, as of dat Wegfallen ’n lege (slechte) Saak weer? Dat Wegfallen vun
düt un dat is in de leeglandschen Spraken totaalmang begeng. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
Vanuit het Westfaals gezien en ook na mijn taalgevoel of taalsmaak heeft Piet
Bult in dit geval gelijk.<br>
<br>
Het heet ook in het Westfaals (verledentijd): <i>ik bakde/bakkede, du
bakdes/bakkedes, wi bakden enz.</i><br>
<br>
Je kunt ook zeggen (sterke buiging): <i>ik bouk, du bouks, ze bouk, wi bouken,
ji bouken. </i>Deelwijs maar vervangen door de eigenlijke optatief-vormen <i>böik(s),
böiken</i>. <br>
<br>
In tegenwoordige tijd heet het ook: <i>ik bakke, wi bakket</i>, maar <i>ik bak</i>
is ook niet vals.<br>
<br>
En ik vind wel, dat het wegvallen/vergeten van belangrijke vormen voor de
betekenis in het Duits Kust-Plat een slecht zaak is. Daarom valt ook straks of
later het Platduitse weg. Een taal zonder herkenbare tijdvormen is neen nuttig
communicatie-middel meer.<br>
<br>
Jammer, dat het Westfaals-Nederduit meer of minner dood is. Zo is misschien het
Nedersaksisch in Nederland
origineler Nederduits dan het Platduits.<br>
<br>
<b>Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien in de laaglandse talen
gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook al in het
standaard-Nederlands</b> (het wegvallen van de <i>du</i>-vorm b.v. en de
navolgende verwarring en kunstmatigheid in het gebruik van jij/je en jullie -
daartoe een volgende keer meer).<br>
<br>
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«<br>
joachim<br>
--<br>
Kreimer-de Fries<br>
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Grammar<br>
<br>
Piet, Joachim, Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
I’m switching this to English because I feel the topic is of wider relevance.<br>
<br>
Folks, I showed that the present and preterit forms of “weak” verbs (not
of “strong” verbs) in Northern Low Saxon dialects coincide due to deletion of
preterit <i>-de</i>; <br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Present:<br>
ik bakk<i>e</i> > bak (back)<br>
du bakk<i>e</i>st<i> > </i>bakst (backst)<br>
hey bakk<i>et</i> > bakt (backt)<br>
wi bakk<i>et</i> > bakt (backt) ~ bakk<i>e</i>n > bakken (backen)</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Preterit:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ik
bak<i>de</i> > bak (back)<br>
du bak<i>de</i>st<i> > </i>bakst (backst)<br>
hey bak<i>de</i> > bak (back)<br>
wi bak<i>de</i>n > bakn (backen)<br>
<br>
Piet’s reaction was something along the lines of “then that dialect group is in
trouble,” and above Joachim agreed with him, saying something like “a dialect
group that doesn’t keep its tenses apart is bound to disappear.”<br>
<br>
I regard this never proven hypothesis as being based upon the superseded,
classic-humanities-based (i.e. Greek- and Latin-fed) assumptions that ...</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(1)
older forms are better than newer forms,<br>
(2) more complex morphology is better than simple morphology</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If
this were so, then English and Afrikaans would have long ended up on the
scrapheap of the language world, and Dutch, too, would be highly endangered for morphological reasons.<br>
<br>
Furthermore, you, Joachim, yourself pointed out that the Westphalian dialects
of Low Saxon do retain the old preterit <i>-de</i> and are now endangered. In
fact, they are more endangered than are the Northern Low Saxon dialects, most
of which have discarded the preterit <i>-de</i>.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In response
to me having pointed out that deletion of morphemic markers is common among the
Lowlands languages, Joachim write above:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
<b><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);">Het wegvallen van dit en dat was en is misschien
in de laaglandse talen gewoon, maar sommige verliezen zijn toe wijd gaande, ook
al in het standaard-Nederlands</span></b><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 153);"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My translation:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>The loss of this and that may be common in the Lowlands languages, but some losses go too far, even
in standard Dutch</b></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Question:
How much is “too far,” and who gets to decide what’s “too far”? Surely it’s for
the speakers to decide. In other words, it’s for the language itself to decide what losses are permissible and with
what losses it can and cannot cope. <b>Equating morphological (or other types of linguistic) simplification with a weakening language status is quite unfounded.</b> <br></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Vital
(i.e., not already highly moribund) languages have ways of “repairing” themselves in cases of what we consider loss. Being today’s
"strongest" and predominant language, English is a prime example. It dealt with morphemic atrophy by, among other ways, making its syntax static, inflexible, thus compensating for the loss of morphemic object marking
(by assigning subject and object to specific syntactic slots). Afrikaans has
abolished the preterit altogether and uses only what used to be the perfective;
e.g. strong ‘go’ and weak ‘bake’:<br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="margin-left: 5.4pt; border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">English</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dutch</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">N. L. Saxon</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Afrikaans</span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">to go, bake</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gaan, bakken</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gahn, backen</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gaan, bak</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I go, bake</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik ga, bak</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik gah, back</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ek gaan, bak</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I went, baked</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik ging, bakte</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik güng, back</span></p>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ek het gegaan, gebakt</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I have gone, baked</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik ben gegaan, heb gebakken</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik bün gahn, heff backt</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In
Northern Low Saxon (and even more in Missingsch varieties that are based upon
it), there is a tendency toward using the perfective form, especially where
otherwise ambiguity would arise in a preterit form. This process has been
completed in Afrikaans and in Hamburg Missingsch:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="margin-left: 5.4pt; border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Standard German</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Hamburg</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Missingsch</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">N. L. Saxon</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Afrikaans</span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gehen, backen</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gehn, backng</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gahn, backen</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">gaan, bak</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ich gehe, backe</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ich geh, back</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik gah, back</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ek gaan, bak</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ich ging, buk ~ backte</span></p>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ich bin gegangng, habb gebackng</span></p>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ik güng, back ~ heff
backt<br>
ik bün gahn, heff backt</span></p>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153) -moz-use-text-color; padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ek het gegaan, gebakt</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color rgb(153, 153, 153) rgb(153, 153, 153); padding: 0in 5.4pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ich bin gegangen, habe gebacken</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Context
usually counteracts tense ambiguity.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
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