<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 March - Volume 05<br>
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
============================== =======================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
<span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar"</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Ron,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">You wrote:<br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">I wonder if any of you can come up with examples in which languages
developed the other way around, namely by acquiring more complex morphologies
with time. I personally can think of no such example.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Did Martin Luther not go
that way with his Bible translation? I thought at the time, the use of cases
was on the way back, also in German, just like in Dutch and English (especially
the genitive). He decided though to remodel German after Latin, which made the
language more complex again...for centuries and centuries.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I'm not sure, but maybe the
same thing can happen anytime. If a certain language acquires status (could be
English these days), and language architects in other (foreign) languages
decide to "reformat" their own language in order to make it sound
more fashionable, you may very well end up with a complex monster (even though
English itself is grammatically simple).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In short, methinks, internal
evolution tends to lead to simplification, whereas external influence
necessitates two differing grammars to merge, possibly creating lots of
"exceptions".</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Kind greetings,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject:
Language varieties</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks,
Luc. <br>
<br>
Interesting thoughts there, especially the alleged case of Luther deliberately
(i.e. artificially) reintroducing complexity to “elevate” German so it could
stand up to the complexity of Latin.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In
theory then, a morphologically relatively complex “supreme” language could
motivate speakers of other languages that develop in the shadow of the
“supreme” language to aspire to similar levels of complexity “at home,” so to
speak. Did I get that right?<br>
<br>
Do you think that this could be why German is morphologically more complex than
Dutch, Low Saxon and Scandinavian, the latter few not having undergone
artificial “Latinophile intervention” of the Lutheran kind?</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">However,
I am under the impression that under most circumstances language contacts
promote simplification. The Scandinavian languages are great examples of this, if
you compare them with Old Norse and Icelandic. It is quite likely that this was
triggered by massive Middle Saxon influences and the eventual absorption of large
numbers of Saxon speakers.<br>
<br>
With regard to my response to Sandy’s
point in the previous post, please let me add the thought that these days we
are unable to witness the birth and early development of natural languages
other than those whose geneses are those of language contact, or “linguistic
confluence,” so to speak.<br>
<br>
Now, it may well be that in such cases we do get glimpses of early
“morphologicalizing” processes, such as in the numerous pidgins and creoles of the
world, most of which developed as a result of colonization. For example, in Papua New Guinea’s
English-based creole Tok Pisin (Neo-Melanesian, <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin-intro.php">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/tokpisin-intro.php</a>)
you can see how English-derived words are used to create grammatical markers
and also create a pronominal system that is more complex than the English one:</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Past: <b>i
bin</b> (< he been)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Mipela
i bin tok olsem. </span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(We
spoke thus.)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Continuative:
<b>i stap</b> (< he stop)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Tripela
i slip i stap. </span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(The
three of them are sleeping.)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Perfective:
<b>pinis</b> (< finish)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Mi i
lusim ki pinis. </span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(I
lost the key.)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Future:
<b>bai</b> (< by and by)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Em
bai ol i go long rum. </span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(They will go to their rooms.)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="border: 1pt solid windowtext;" border="1" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Singular</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Dual</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Trial</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Plural</span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1st exclusive</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">mi</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(I)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">mitupela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(he/she and I)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">mitripela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(both of them, and I)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">mipela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(all of them, and I)</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">1st inclusive</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">-</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yumitupela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(thou and I)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yumitripela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(both of you, and I)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yumipela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> ~ <b>yumi</b><br>
(all of you, and I)</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">2nd</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yu</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(thou)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yutupela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(you two)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yutripela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(you three)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">yupela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(you four or more)</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="">
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">3rd</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">em</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(he/she)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">tupela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(they two)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">tripela</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(they three)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0.75pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">ol</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
(they four or more)</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">[<b>mi</b> < me, yu
< you, <b>tu</b> < two, <b>tri</b> < three, <b>pela</b> < fellow, <b>ol</b>
< all, <b>em</b> < him]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">However,
I strongly suspect that this use of initially foreign words for grammatical
marking did not arise out of a vacuum. Much rather, I believe that the
motivation was to replicate in this new intercultural medium grammatical
categories that existed within the native Melanesian languages, categories that
were considered essential in the cultures and thus in the minds of the native
population. In other words, mostly English-derived vocabulary (with loans from German,
Melanesian, Polynesian and Malay mixed in) served to create a lingua franca that
could perform all the fundamental functions other known native languages could perform.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=========================================================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br>
<a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a>
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">lowlands.list@gmail.com</span></a><br>
<a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</span></a>.<br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</span></a><br>
===========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>