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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 March - Volume 02<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mike Morgan</span></span><span> </span><span><<a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (04) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
Hmm, Ron, a good question (and like all good questions, maybe one with NO
answer... or one with MANY answers???)<br>
<br>
An old prof of mine, a certain Carleton Hodge, wrote a paper once upon a time
(I forget at present where it was published or even when) looking at the
morphological development of Egyptian -- from earliest records through late
Coptic... and he saw the development as being cyclical rather than linear...
with maybe a period of morphological simplification followed by one of
increasing complexity / moving from analytical to synthetic and back again....<br>
<br>
not being an Egyptologist (though i did at one time study Coptic), I am not
sure if in its long history we can find an indesputable counter example or
not...<br>
<br>
mwm || U C > || mike || мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">===========================================================<br>
Senior Consultant<br>
BA Programme in Applied Sign Linguistics<br>
IGNOU-UCLan New Delhi, India<br>
===========================================================</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">"I have
become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one<br>
door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door. Something terrific
will <br>
come no matter how dark the present." (R. Tagore)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mark and Ruth Dreyer</span></span><span> </span><span><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net" target="_blank">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.16 (05) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
Dear Ron, Sandy, Luc & Co.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL-L
"Grammar"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ron wrote:</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I wonder if any
of you can come up with examples in which languages developed the other way
around, namely by acquiring more complex morphologies with time. I personally
can think of no such example.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I can't, but I
recall mentioning an observation on the subject that I read somewhere in
Bodmer's 'The Loom of Language'.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Well, I have
hunted up the passage, & here goes:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">He quotes Sir
George Grierson who had charge of The Linguistic Survey of India, who says:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><span> </span>"The Outer Sub-branch (of Indo-Aryan
venaculars) have gone a stage further in linguistic evolution. They were once,
in their Sanscrit form, synthetic; then they passed through an analytic stage -
some are passing through that stage only now, and are, like Sindhi and
Kashmiri, so to speak caught in the act - and have again become synthetic by
the incorporation of the auxiliary words, used in the analytical stage, with
the main words to which they which they are attached...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="right"><span style="color: black;">p.411</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="right"><span style="color: black;">The Loom of Language, <i>A
Guide to Foreign Languages for the Home Student.</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="right"><i><span style="color: black;">by </span></i><span style="color: black;">Frederick Bodmer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="right"><i><span style="color: black;">edited & arranged by </span></i><span style="color: black;">Lancelot Hogben</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="right"><span style="color: black;">George Allen & Unwin Ltd. <i>London</i><i> </i>1944</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">So the long
experience of dialects evolved from Sanscrit show a cyclic process, passing
from synthetic, & by ablation becoming analytic followed again by synthetic
as the auxiliary words are incorporated into new forms, to be absorbed, lost
& replaced again by other auxiliary words. & so it goes.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Yrs</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Mark</span><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
"dealangeam" <<a href="mailto:atdelange@iburst.co.za" target="_blank">atdelange@iburst.co.za</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Subject: LL_L
"Grammar" [EN]</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Beste Laaglanders,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Sandy Fleming asked early in this thread:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">“If languages always simplify over
time, then are the earliest human languages the most complex morphologically?”</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I do not think so. I have had discussions with the San in Namibia on
their petroglyphs (10,000 years old), trying to make out what messages it
conveyed. As i understand it, it contains no grammar, but suggests a diversity
of semantics based on a central theme.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I think that grammar in signs emerged and become more complex to make
sure that one of the many messages persist.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Then, later, Ron wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">“However, I am under the impression
that under most circumstances language contacts promote simplification. The
Scandinavian languages are great examples of this, if you compare them with Old
Norse and Icelandic. It is quite likely that this was triggered by massive
Middle Saxon influences and the eventual absorption of large numbers of Saxon
speakers.</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">With regard to my response to Sandy’s point in the
previous post, please let me add the thought that these days we are unable to
witness the birth and early development of natural languages other than those
whose geneses are those of language contact, or “linguistic confluence,” so to
speak.</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Now, it may well be that in such
cases we do get glimpses of early “morphologicalizing” processes, such as in
the numerous pidgins and creoles of the world, most of which developed as a
result of colonization.”</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ron, I remember that in early days of Lowlands,
we discussed this topic. I stressed that Afrikaans is both the youngest of the
Germanic languages and also the least morphologically complex. In those days
many argued that Afrikaans is a pidgin or creole language. That argument is
roughly 250 years old, used by European linguists. Today i do not become mad
anymore at such simple arguments.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">The first upsetting fact is that although Afrikaners (Vryburgers,
Grensboere, Voortrekkers, Republikeine) cloud read and write in Dutch, they
preferred to speak in Afrikaans. Even worse, linguists of Europe
was blind to this fact, unable to recognise spoken Afrikaans as a fully fledged
language able to express all thoughts like any European language.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">The second upsetting fact is that speakers of European languages (Dutch,
French, German, Portugese), African Languages (San, several Xhoi, few Banthu)
and Asian languages (Malaysian) is that they preferred Afrikaans to Dutch
(before 1800) and later to English (after 1800) to communicate across cultural
complexities. Afrikaans did not only support a Germanic culture, but also acted
as a lingua franca for European, African and Asian Cultures.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Biological evolution into more complexity is not the brain child of Darwin. It was observed
and mentioned by the ancient Greeks and Chinese, the Arabs in the middel ages
and the Europeans during the enlightenment. Linnaeus (the father of biological
taxonomy) was perhaps the pinnacle of that development. What Darwin did, was also to add a mechanism by
which it happened: natural selection in terms of environmental dangers.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">In the evolution of natural languages, it is almost the opposite. The
fittest languages to survive is the simplest ones. Here the utmost goal is not
survival, but agility and interconnectivity. Neither is a spontaneous
phenomenon, but have to be gained by work. In this case Darwinian evolution is
useless since it focus only on spontaneous changes.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">There is a far more encompassing viewpoint on how systems develop into
more as well as less complexity. Furthermore, it is based on empirical
observations. It is called Irreversible Self-organization and was introduced by
Ilya Progigine. It involves the law of entropy production, usually called the
second law of thermodynamics.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Very few people know how far beyond thermodynamics it stretches. The
reason is that it is mentally intimidating because of the complexity involved.
I have argued on several sites that it commands/allows both complexity and
simplicity. However, my writings seems to be too dense for most thinkers to
understand it.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Evolution towards complexity is favoured by open systems whereas closed
systems can lead to simplicity. Please note what Luc writes:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">“In short, methinks, internal
evolution tends to lead to simplification, whereas external influence
necessitates two differing grammars to merge, possibly creating lots of
"exceptions".”</span><span style="color: navy;"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">What a great statement by someone who know, perhaps nothing, of (1) the
law of entropy production and (2) irreversible self-organization as its
outcome.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">As laaglanders wil weet hoe taalbevorming (“language morphology”) deur
(1) en (2) plaasvind, sal hulle maar eers Afrikaans moet leer en daarna met
Google gaan soek wat ek daaroor te skryf het. Gebruik “ontluiker”, “woes” en
“OS” as trefwoorde.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Ek is nie moedswillig nie. Ek is waagmoedig. Eenvoudige Afrikaans is in
staat om die mees ingewikkelde begrippe te weergee. Ek stel nie belang daarin
om ander mense in Engels te bedien nie. Ek het ‘n passie om my eie taal lewendig
te hou.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Mooi loop</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">At de Lange</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">(Ontluiker)</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Grammar<br>
<br>
Thank you for sharing your great ideas and thoughts, dear At, Mark and Mike!<br>
<br>
Lowlanders, if you want to keep up with this thread and wonder about the types
of language structures we are talking about, please read up on them here:<br>
<br>
Isolating: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_language</a><br>
Synthetic: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language</a><br>
<span> </span>Polysynthetic: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language</a><br>
<span> </span>Fusional: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language</a><br>
<span> </span>Agglutinative: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language</a><br>
<br>
Dear At, I tend to agree that “simplified languages” tend to be more flexible
and thereby more viable as intercultural linguae francae, as shown in the cases
of both Afrikaans and English. And their simplification tends to be the result
of contacts. The chicken or the egg?<br>
<br>
However, “simplification” is really a very misleading word. The morphologies
may be simplified, but languages compensate, as I remarked on an earlier
occasion. In learning English and Afrikaans as a second language people have to
put a lot of effort into syntax at first and then into idiomatic expressions.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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