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L O W L A N D S - L - 19 March - Volume 02<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: Hannelore Hinz <a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]<br>
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>and
LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.17 (02) (AF-EN]<br>
<br>
Dear Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
Ron wrote: <span style="color: rgb(102, 51, 255);">Let mi bounce another tentative
assertion off you:<br>
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>Languages
with simplified</span> <span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 204);">grammars (such as English
and Afrikaans) are more suitable as <br>
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>liguae
francae because they do not require the foreign learner to deal with complex<br>
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>morphological
rules prior to acquiring a beginner's working knowledge.<br>
<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>Correct
or false, and why?<br>
<br>
</span><span style="color: black;">I find this right (correct) because I am a
'advanced' beginner (English).<br>
<br>
I have read all types of linguistic structures and they in a file stored. <br>
<br>
Thanks Ron!<br>
<br>
Greetings.<br>
<br>
Hanne</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">----------</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
> From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">><br>
> Subject: Grammar</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br>
> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner’s
working knowledge.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I see Walloons have quite
some difficulty with learning Dutch and German, though both are national
languages in Belgium.
So most of them prefer English as second language in school.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Other factors though may
play a role as the international status of English and some anti-feelings.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">And those who learnt Dutch
or German during several years are reluctant to expose themself with using it,
while the ones who studied English have no refrain, even while talking with a
strong French accent.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Roger</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:fleemin@live.co.uk">fleemin@live.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
> From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">> Subject: LL-L
"Grammar" 2011.03.16 (03) [EN]</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">>The idea of expressing
"rock-being-thrown-ness" and "rock-sitting-on-the-ground-ness"
by simply re-arranging the same few simpler words is a development of logic.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>
It is difficult to imagine the reverse process occurring, so that may explain
why grammar doesn't get more complex.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>
Also, the world of more ancient people, with simpler technologies, simply
didn't have the same amount of things in them to name. As bronze and iron,
ploughs and microchips turn up, you are probably less inclined give each of
them half a dozen different names according to their circumstances.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This
really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently indigenous
Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their languages are
some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a technologically-driven
language change theory to the facts, you'd probably have to concern yourself
more with explaining why peoples with simpler lifestyles tend to have more
complex languages!</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Grammar<br>
<br>
> Thanks for all the interesting responses!<br>
<br>
> Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:<br>
<br>
> Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are
more suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner
to deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner’s
working knowledge.<br>
<br>
> Correct or false, and why?</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Allow
to me eschew the law of the excluded middle on this one :)</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">There
might be some truth in it but I don't see why German (say) isn't just as good
as a lingua franca: beginners make a dog's breakfast of both languages, but as
a bazaar language this is acceptable. And when you get past the beginner stage,
you can just as easily get as good at a complex language as you could at a
"simple" one, since what we're referring to here as "simple"
languages are only superficially simple, really.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I'd
say the choice of a lingua franca will be due to political and economic, rather
than linguistic, factors.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The
dearth of inflection structures in English and its laissez faire approach to
orthography does seem to me to make choice of English as a lingua franca
fortunate (in some ways) as other-cultural concepts such as pizza, llamas and
feng shui can just be taken up in English in their original spellings or any
suitable transliteration. But fortunate as this might be (in some ways), it's
not the _reason_ English has become a lingua franca.</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Sandy
Fleming</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">----------</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span class="gi"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>><br>
Subject: Grammar<br>
<br>
Thanks for all the interesting responses!<br>
<br>
Let me bounce another tentative assertion off you:<br>
<br>
Languages with simplified grammars (such as English and Afrikaans) are more
suitable as liguae francae because they do not require the foreign learner to
deal with complex morphological rules prior to acquiring a beginner’s working
knowledge.<br>
<br>
Correct or false, and why?<br>
<br>
Regards, and happy Purim!<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It
certainly seems to be the case that linga francae do have simpler grammar than
languages not shared by others. This is especially noticeable in Papua New Guinea
in the case of Hiri (formerly "Police") Motu, the Papuan lingua
franca, though Tok Pisin has begun to eroded its influence in recent years. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">That
is an interesting case because it exists side-by-side with its parent language
of "true" Motu, i.e. the speech of the Motu-Koita people. It and its
closerelatives all along the south Papuan coast have an inflexion sytem of verb
conjugations and noun cases similar in structure to Indo-European languages. These
are completely ignored in Hiri Motu. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The
language seems to predate European colonial presence; it evolved from the Motu
voyages up to the Papuan coast to trade pottery for sago (Hiri means
"trade") though Australian Patrol Officers in the former Papuan
territory spread it far beyond the Hiri area. </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul
</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">England</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (02) [EN]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">From: Sandy Fleming <<a href="http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fleemin@live.co.uk" target="_blank"><span style="color: navy;">fleemin@live.co.uk</span></a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.03.18 (01) [EN]<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">"This
really isn't what determines language complexity. Up until recently indigenous
Australians did have a relatively simple lifestyle, but their languages are
some of the most complex in the world. In fact to fit a technologically-driven
language change theory to the facts, you'd probably have to concern yourself
more with explaining why peoples with simpler lifestyles tend to have more
complex languages!" </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Actually Sandy, if you read my post, that is precisely
what I was saying - older languages and simpler lifestyles are associated with
more complex languages. That is exactly my point: as life gets more complicated
the language gets more analytical and grammatically simpler, in order to cope. Even
our brains can only hold so much!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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