<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center">=====================================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 April 2011 - Volume 02<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color:#00681C">Hellinckx Luc</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar"</span><br>
<br>
On 22/04/11, at 20:03, Lowlands-L List wrote:<br style="mso-special-character:
line-break">
<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">I'm well aware that the treated distortion phenomena, once
grammatically established and generally used, hardly could changed back. But
perhaps some more historical consciousness could be integrated in Dutch language
teaching and grammar (and not only in historical linguistics, where I indeed
found the material).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: navy;">How do you thing about that? Tell me, where my fact finding is
erroneous and - in case - why my concept of historically aware grammar is
mistaken. </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">I cannot but agree on your
findings and remarks. My take on it, is that due to heavy influx of well to do
and influential Southerners in Holland, back in the 16th and 17th century,
language "architects" have started to engineer Dutch. A standard
language was constructed. Here in the South though, this "novel"
language did not catch on, it has long been considered "alien"
because it was perceived as a "boekentaal" (which it actually was to
a large extent).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">One example, my parents will
never use the word "jullie", it's just not part of their casual
register, it's a "boekenwoord". They will write it down when
necessary, but they will never pronounce it.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Personally, because I'm a
teacher, I will use the word only in a scholastic environment. Outside the classroom,
even with co-workers, it won't cross my lips...it's just not felt to be
colloquial. Reason of course is, that we stick to the old "gij-lie"
(> gijle, gelle). No initial -j- forms at all in our Frankish, those are
considered Western and Northern.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Students are slowly evolving
though, and like always, the dialect that triggers these changes the most is
the city dialect of Antwerp.
It almost functions as a bridge between the Deep South and Holland. On the one hand, it still sounds
"plat" (making it acceptable for trendsetters), on the other, it's
probably the most innovative dialect (testing ground for Northern novelties).
Moreover, the increasing number of female teachers in Belgian education
plays a role too. The less conservative nature of female speech (compared to
men's) will set a blueprint for the near future.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Voilà, just my two cents.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">Kind greetings,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"> </p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc Hellinckx,
Halle, Belgium</span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"></span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">
----------<br><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"></span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br></span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">
From: <span class="gd"><span style="color:#5B1094">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.04.22 (01) [EN-NL]</span></p><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><br><span class="gi"></span></p><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
From: Joachim
<<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com" target="_blank">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<h3 style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal;"><font size="2">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.04.22 (01) [EN, NL]<br>
</font><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Grammatical
dis-figurations
(verbasteringen)/deformations of modern Dutch: <br>
personal pronouns <i>(du), u, jij/je, jullie</i> and their
verb forms</span></h3>
</blockquote></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I guess your observations are basically right, but I don't like how
you charge your report with personal judgement. "deformation",
"wrong", "myth" etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion about linguistic
features (my own dialect of Low Saxon does not know any polite forms
because people in the villages always use the personal "du" and
anybody foreign enough to be addressed politely would automatically
be addressed in German. Therefore I personally like languages with
no T-V distinction better, like English or the Scandinavian
languages which dropped the T-V distinction in the 60s/70s
[</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen" target="_blank"><http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen></a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">]).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But there's no point in calling linguistic features "deformations"
or classifications "wrong" or observations "myths". Dutch has
changed its pronoun system. You can personally consider it a
"deformation" but from a strictly linguistical point of view this
change is neutral and similar changes occured in many languages. A
normal linguistical process. You can personally consider it "wrong"
to regard "jij bent" as a singular form, but in contemporary Dutch
its role is singular irrespective of what the role of "jij" was
historically. You can personally consider the Eenheidspluralis a "myth", but looking
at contemporary Dutch, the language has a common form for
the plural. By the way, even though Dutch nowadays has a
Eenheidspluralis, it is still considered to be outside the
Eenheidspluralis area, the Eenheidspluralis line being an important
isogloss along the Low Franconian/Low Saxon border
(</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eenheids-pluralislijn" target="_blank"><http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eenheids-pluralislijn></a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Marcus Buck</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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