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L O W L A N D S - L - 03 May 2011 - Volume 01<br>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><font size="2">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Leslie Decker</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:leslie@familydecker.org">leslie@familydecker.org</a></span></span><span><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);"></span></span></font></p>
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</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><font size="2">Subject: <span></span><span></span><span></span><span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]</span></font></p>
<font size="2"><br>FWIW, I seem to remember Czech doing the same thing, and a quick look at
some jokes websites confirms this: Přijde muž z hospody a říká
manželce: ( (there) comes a man from the pub and says to his wife). <br></font><font color="#888888" size="2"><br>Leslie Decker<br><br></font><font size="2"><span style="color: navy;">----------<br><br></span></font><div class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 51);">
<font size="2">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Theo Homan</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a></span></span></font></div>
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</div><font size="2">Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]</span><br><br></font><div style="color: rgb(0, 51, 51); margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2">From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" href="http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> </font></div>
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</div><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2">Subject: Grammar<br><br>Thanks, Luc and Henry!<br><br>In Low Saxon (of Germany) and also in many if not most non-standard
German dialects, this same construction (VS instead of usual SV) is used
to convey conditionality (if/when); e.g. Low Saxon:</font>
<font size="2"><br><br></font><font size="2">Gah ik so up de Straat, gluupt de Lüd' mi an.<br></font><font size="2">
("Go I thusly on(to) the street, stare the people me at")<br></font><font size="2">People stare at me when(ever) I go outside (looking) </font><font size="2">like this. ~<br>People will stare at me if I go outside (looking) like this.<br>
<br></font>
<font size="2">[...]</font></div><div style="margin-left: 40px;" class="im"><font size="2"><br>What do you think, Lowlanders?<br></font></div><font size="2"><br><span style="color: navy;">Hi,<br><br>I don't think that much.<br>
But
this construction goes back to germanic roots, and has mainly survived
in spoken language [that selden was transformed in ink-appearance].<br><br>In good, old days [when everybody was still happy] this construction was especially known from Amsterdam / yiddish/jewish jokes.<br>When in conversation someone said: 'Rijdt een fiets op de stoep...', then 9 out of 10 times you espected a joke to follow.<br>
<br>But also in everyday-talk this construction was a common feature:<br>'Loop ik in de van Woustraat, schreeuwt er ineens een man...'.<br><br>vr. gr.<br>Theo Homan</span><span style="color: navy;"><br><br>----------<br>
<br></span></font><div class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 51);"><font size="2">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mwmbombay@gmail.com">mwmbombay@gmail.com</a></span></span></font></div>
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</div><font size="2">Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]</span><br><span style="color: navy;"><br></span>Okay, no Verb-initial sentences to be heard around here (native Indian
languages all --at least to my knowledge-- being verb final languages),
but thought I might interject comments on a word-order specific trait of
Indian English here.<br>
<br>In questions with question words (aka content questions), whereas
"standard" Englishes "move" the question word to initial position AND
then the verb (usually a "dummy" verb like 'have' or 'do') into second
position, Indian English simply moves the question word into initial
position, while keeping the rest of the sentence word order intact.
Thus:<br>
<br>What you would like to eat?<br>Who you will come with?<br><br>Compared
with 30 years ago when I first lived in South Asia, many features of
Idnian English are gradually being replaced by more standard forms, but
THIS is one feature that I hear quite regularly (in addition rather than
to the exclusion of "standard" forms).<br>
<br>As for the REASONS for the above word order/sentence structure, that
is a question. It APPEARS to NOT be a case of simple substratal
influence (no Indian language has such sturctures per se). SO, it could
be:<br>1) implementation of HALF the standard English content-question
formation process (i.e. movement of content question word to initial
position... but without any other changes).<br>
or<br>2) influence from the use of the question word "what" (which
differes from language to language) in sentence initial poisition in
vernacular languages to form YES/NO QUESTIONS (but most definitively NOT
content questions).<br>
<br>or of course a bit of both....<br><br>I'm assuming it probably is NOT influence from the Yinglish "<b>Nu</b>, I have to ask permission to change the channel?”<br><br>mwm || U C > || mike || мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)<br>
</font><div><font size="2"><br>Senior Consultant<br>BA in Applied Sign Language Studies (BAASLS)<br>Indira Gandhi National Open Univeristy<br>New Delhi, India<br></font><div style="overflow: hidden; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: transparent; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; border: medium none;">
<p><font size="2">"<span>Too
often we honor swagger and bluster and wielders of force; too often we
excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered
dreams of others. ... [T]here is another kind of violence, slower but
just as deadly destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is
the violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow
decay." (Bobby Kennedy, 5 April 1968)</span></font></p><p><font size="2"><span>----------</span></font></p><div class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 51, 51);"><font size="2">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">M.-L. Lessing</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a></span></span></font></div>
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Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]</span><br>
<span style="color: navy;"><br>
</span></font></div></div><div><font size="2">Dear Ron, I knew I had overlooked something -- and something
so obvious as "Kommt ein Vogel geflogen"! Shame on me! :-)) In the case of folk
song texts (there are several, "Zogen einst fünf wilde Schwäne" usw.) I had
unconsciously supposed that something had been omitted at the beginning -- e.g.
"(Es) kommt ein Vogel geflogen" or "(Da) kommt ein Vogel geflogen". But now I
think you may be right and it is a deliberate construction to more
effectively pull the listener/reader into the context. Interesting that it is so
in Nederlands also!</font></div><font size="2">
</font><div><font size="2"> </font></div><font size="2">
</font><div><font size="2">Thanks to all,</font></div><font size="2">
</font><div><font size="2"> </font></div><font size="2">
</font><font size="2">Marlou<span style="color: navy;"><br><br>----------<br><br></span></font>From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.03 (01) [EN]<br><br><div bgcolor="#ffffff">
Beste Marlou, Ron, Luc, Henry & other interesting Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
Am 03.05.11 03:12, schrieb Reinhard/Ron:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><font size="2">Gah ik so up de Straat, gluupt de Lüd'
mi an.<br>
("Go I thusly on(to) the street, stare the people me at")</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><small>At first thought I assumed that this {"used to
convey conditionality (if/when)"} and what I call "narrative
construction" are separate. At second thought, however, I wonder
if they are in fact related. "Setting the stage," so to speak,
the VS construction makes the listener expect a result or at
least continuation. See what I'm driving at? So, if in German
you say <i>Ein Mann geht zum Arzt</i> (A man goes to a/his
doctor) it could be the end of the story. However, if you say <i>Geht
ein Mann zum Arzt</i> ("Goes a man to a/his doctor") you
definitely expect more.<br>
<br>
What do you think, Lowlanders?</small>
<br>
</blockquote>
Although the cases are different in grammatical form - the first
being a conditional construction without conjunction, the second a
consecutive/copulative one - they might to be linked together in the
sense of incomplete meaning/statement in the respective first
subset. Or as Luc H. put it:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><small>Putting the verb in front
(intentionally) breaks order and adds panache, because attention
is shifting towards action. Sure way to make the audience get
involved, feel tension and start anticipating.</small></blockquote>
<br>
But I'd like to point to a further narrative connection of the
simple VS-construction in jokes: the construction with preliminary
subject: there / er (…eens) / dår, 't (…eens) / da, es (…mal), e.
g.:<br>
<br>
Da <i>geht/ging ein Mann zum Arzt</i><br>
Da <i>kommt ein Vogel geflogen</i><br>
Er <i>komt een man bij de dokter, zegt 'ie ...</i><br>
Neulich <i>komm ich nach Hause: sitzt da die Katze im Spülstein.<br>
</i>Er/ 't <i>waren eens twee künigeskinder, … (</i>classical
beginning of fairy tales in many languages)<br>
<i><br>
</i>In constrast <b>the particularity in the joke- (and comparable
other) syntax is the skipping of the prelimary subject (there, er,
eens, da/es) .</b><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><small>Furthermore, I have a feeling that this VS
construction used to be used in earlier varieties of English,
though I can't come up with concrete examples at this very
moment. Perhaps they are not directly linked, but you find VS in
certain types of clauses, such as "'Enough!' say I (~ says I)."
I assume that these are archaisms hailing back to greater
syntactic flexibility in English.</small><br>
</blockquote>
One may call it "archaisms", but I regard it a loss of panache and
phrasing possibilities in the modern, bureaucratically and conduct
regulated grammar and styles of talking and writing.<br>
<br>
Greater syntactic flexibility not only in older English, but in all
previous stages of Germanic languages. And in Non-Germanic languages
with more preserved grammatical (especially flection) forms, too. A
topic we had about here already when I was once lamenting the loss
of grammatical forms in today's Low Saxon (Missingsch) and
Netherlands.<br>
<br>
<b>The more forms are preserved, the more flexible is syntax and
panache, the richer the register of the ways of speaking.</b> <br>
<pre cols="65"><small>Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</small></pre>
</div>
----------<br><font size="2"><span style="color: navy;"><br></span></font>From: Hannelore Hinz <a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]<br>
<br>
Un wedder heit dat:<br>
Leiw' Lowlanners<br>
<br>
Ron fraagt an "Wat denkt ji, Lowlanners?" (What do you think,
Lowlanders?)<br>
<br>
Ick heff nahdacht oewer Archaismen (archaisms), un will nu dit noch
vermell'n:<br>
<br>
Bispill för Archaismen: funn'n bi DWb.VI,463: im 18.jh. sind sie
(die Reime) veraltet), "..... eine<br>
unwitzige Art Scherzgedichte, welche ehedem bey feyerlichen
Mahlzeiten sehr üblich waren, und welche bey Gelegenheit, der
Hechtleber auf die jedesmaligen Umstände gemacht wurden z.B.: Die <br>
Leber ist von einem ... und nicht von einem ..., wo alsdann ein
Thier genannt wird, auf dessen Namen die folg. Zeile reimen muß. -<br>
<br>
<b>Archaismus </b>(gr. archaios alt): veralteter Ausdruck oder
Sprachgebrauch, z.B. "Wams" statt "Jacke". Bezeichnet als Klangfigur
die künstlerisch beabsichtigte Nachahmung altertümlicher
Sprachformen in einem Wortkunstwerk, das im übrigen in der
herrschenden Sprache abgefaßt ist.<br>
"Der Ausdruckswert der veralteten Sprachformen besteht darin, daß
sie die Lebensluft früherer Zeit mitbringen."<i> (Schneider)<br>
<br>
</i><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leberreim" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leberreim</a><br>
<br>
<b>Ein Winterabend</b> in einem mecklenburgischen Bauernhause - Ein
Bühnenstück für niederdeutsche Lande nach alten
Volksüberlieferungen zusammengestellt von Professor Dr. h. c.
Richard Wossidlo.<br>
Hinstorffsche Verlagbuchhandlung Seestadt Wismar.<br>
Waren, im März 1937. R. Wossidlo<br>
<br>
<b>Leberreime</b> (auf Hochzeiten)<br>
<br>
Auftritt <b>Annmriek.</b><br>
<br>
De Läwer is von'n Häkt un nich von 'n Boor,<br>
Twischen mi un mien Feinsliebchen wassen 'n poor Roggenohr.<br>
Die Blätter sein verwesen,<br>
Mein Feinsliebchen hat sich eine Andere auserlesen.<br>
Feinsliebchen, warum quälst du mich?<br>
Ich will dich bei Gott verklagen,<br>
Und will meinen Kranz ins Grab vertragen. (Waren)<br>
<br>
<br>
Auftritt <b>Thriendüürt.</b><br>
<br>
Ich habe die Leber auf's Messer gestochen,<br>
Ich und mein Feinsliebchen haben uns die Eh' versprochen;<br>
Er liebt mich, ich lieb ihn wieder.<br>
Er hat drei vergüllte Buchstaben in mein Herze geschrieben,<br>
Die erste heißt a, das ist die liebe Ja,<br>
Und die andere heißt o,<br>
Wenn ich ihn seh, ist mein Herz immer froh,<br>
Und die dritte heißt s, daß ich die Liebe niemals vergeß.<br>
<br>
Auftritt <b>Fiek.</b><br>
<br>
De Läwer is von 'n Häkt un nich von 'n Thymian,<br>
Hier steiht 'n vergüllten Maieran;<br>
Den'n ik woll begehr, dee kümmt man selten her,<br>
Den'n ik nich vermag, dee geiht hier rümsnuben Dag un Nacht;<br>
Dee is mi so väl nütt, as dat Water in de Pütt,<br>
As dat föfft Rad an'n Wagen,<br>
Wat deiht son 'n snuufrottigen Bengel na mi to fragen.<br>
<br>
Ick wünsch alltohopen väl Freud'.<br>
<br>
Hanne<br>
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