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L O W L A N D S - L - 17 May 2011 - Volume 01<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#790619"><a href="mailto:clarkedavid8@aol.com">clarkedavid8@aol.com</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "History" 2011.05.16 (02) [EN-NL]</span><br>
<br>
</p><font color="black" size="2">Paul Finlow-Bates said:<br>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
<blockquote style="padding-left:3px;border-left:blue 2px solid">
<div>Interestingly, this bilabial fricative was once the hallmark of
Cockney. The effect is that to outsiders, it sounds like they are
saying "berry" for "very" for example. The common shortening of William
to Bill is an example of transfer to more standard English.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Charles Dickens Character, Sam Weller in "The Pickwick Papers",
is asked if his name is "Weller" or "Beller", and he replies that it is
really neither one nor the other, more like both.</div>
</blockquote></div>
<br>
<div>Latin "w" written "v" came to be pronounced as "v" in most Romance languages. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I learnt that standard Spanish pronounces v and b identically as a
bilabial fricative intervocally and as a bilabial plosive elswehere. I
once discussed this with an educated Peruvian, though, who denied the
existence of a bilabial fricative in Spanish and said that v and b were
pronounced as in English. I never heard him speak Spanish, so whether
this reflected his own pronunciation or whether he pronounced b and v
the way I had learnt but was himself unwaware of this, I cannot say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>David Clarke</div></font><p class="MsoNormal">
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094"><a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.15 (03) [EN-NL]</span></p><br><div class="im">From: Brooks, Mark <a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us" target="_blank">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a><br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Piet schrijft:<div class="im"><br>
?Dit in tegenstelling tot een 'v' en een 'f'. Bij een 'v' is de<br>
uitgangspositie ongeveer gelijk als bij een 'w' maar stroomt er wel lucht en<br>
heeft dus wel een (sissende) eigen klank net als de 'f', die iets scherper<br>
sist.?<br>
<br>
Previously I asked my Dutch friends about the difference between ?v? and<br>
?f?. One of them said something like, if you?re the Queen you pronounce them<br>
differently, but everyone else just pronounces ?v? like an ?f?.<br>
<br>
I had no idea I?d set off such a ?schijtstorm? to use a calque. Very<br>
interesting stuff. Keep it up!<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Whether 'v' and 'f' are different depends on the region and dialect. The
south distinguishes the two sounds while the north (the Low Saxon
region, the Frisian region, and Holland partially) does not distinguish
them and uses one of the two forms for both (which one takes precedence
depends on the region, Frisia, Drenthe and Holland south of the IJ go
for the 'f' sound while Groningen, Overijssel, Gelderland and Holland
north of the IJ go for the 'v' sound).<br>
<br>
Source: Morphological Atlas of the Dutch Dialects maps at <<a href="http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html" target="_blank">http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html</a>><br>
<br>
Marcus Buck<br><br>
<p class="MsoNormal">
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> </p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Theo Homan</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.15 (05) [EN-NL]</span><br>
<br></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">From: Joachim <</span><a style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);" rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com" target="_blank">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.17 (01) [NL][...]</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"></div><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
<br>
Omdat ik in het oudere, beschaafd Nederlands ook de juiste uitspraak van het
beschaafd (d.w.z. Middel-)Nederduits te vinden hoop,</div><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><br></div><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">[...]</div><br><div>Moin,</div><div><br>
</div><div>Bestond er vroeger dan een j u i s t e uitspraak van het (middel-)Nederduits?</div><div><br></div><div>Ik zou het niet weten.</div><div>Wel
weet ik dat het een romantische opvatting is dat vroeger alles een
gave, prachtige eenheid was waarin naderhand allerlei afwijkingwn
ontstonden, en dat wij, beschaafde, intelligente geleerden die eenheid
weer moetenr reconstrueren.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">vr.gr</a>.</div><div>Theo Homan<br><br>----------<br><br>From: Hannelore Hinz <a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.15 (05) [EN-NL]<br>
<br>
Hallo leiw' Lowlanners,<br>
<br>
ick kannt't nich laten bi all' den'n Spaß. Ick wunner mi, dat'n so
verdull up de Utspraak von de Konsonanten v, f un w rieden deit.<br>
<br>
Ick nähm doch an, wi hebben all' den'n glieken "Stimmapparat".<br>
<br>
As mi för Johren ein Licht upgüng, as "Entertainer'sch) mien Hoch
un Platt akraat tau snacken, bün ick up eigen Kosten ~ drei Johr bi
einen Experten (Schauspieler, Rezitator, Rundfunksprecher) in de
Liehr gahn. Un de hett mi bannig rankrägen!<br>
<br>
Männig marken dat gor nich mihr, ob sei wohrhaftig 'bestens' snacken
un hollen sick liekers noch för gaud... Ofteins snacken de Minschen
as wenn sei up Laatschen so hen slarpen...<br>
<br>
Wi Minschen hebben doch all'tohopen den'n glieken "Stimm'apperat",
dat fangt all an mit:<br>
<br>
1. Atmungsorgane: Lunge, Zwerchfell und die übrige
Atmungsmuskulatur.<br>
2. Kehlkopf, als der eigentliche Stimmapparat mit den Stimmlippen
(Stimmbändern), dem <br>
Kehldeckel und der Muskulatur. Die Verbindung zwischen Kehlkopf
und Lungen bilden die <br>
Luftröhre.<br>
3. Die Sprachbildungs- und Artikulationsorgane: Mundhöhle, Zunge,
Zähne, Lippen Gaumensegel.<br>
<br>
Zu diesen treten als sekundäre Tonbildner die Resonatoren: der
Brustraum und die Kopfhöhlen (Mund-, Nasen-, Rachen- und
Stirnbeinhöhle). Lit.: DER KLEINE HEY<br>
<br>
Nu hier von "Zöppel" noch wat: <br>
<b>w</b>: Innenrand der Unterlippe berührt Schneide der oberen
Schneidezähne, Zungenspitze wie bei m, Gaumensegel gehoben,
stimmhaft.<br>
<b>f</b>: wie w, aber stimmlos.<br>
<br>
Dat <i>A un O </i>(Hauptsache) is, dissen "Stimmapparat" hägen un
plägen un mit em äuben.<br>
Wi weiten je, dat in männig Rebeiten de Minschen noch ein anner
Klüer up ehr egen Oort ut maken<br>
(Regionale Klangfarbe), de wi je ok bibeholl'n will'n.<br>
<br>
Wichtig is, dat nich jedwerein sien Eigenklüer för richtig höllt.
Wotau disketieren wi denn oewer de<br>
Konsonanten v, f un w.<br>
Wenn ein diss' Konsonaten noch nich so richtig snacken kann, möt hei
dat liern un dor gahn einen womoeglich de Oogen bi oewer.<br>
<br>
All' Spraaken hebben ehren apartigen Klang.<br>
Liekers, wat möt, dat möt!<br>
(Wi koenen doch nich mit de Konsonanten Fautball spälen...)<br>
<br>
Hartlich.<br>
<br>
Hanne </div>
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