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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 May 2011 - Volume 03<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.19 (03) [EN]</p><br><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><small>Am 20.05.11 06:14, schrieb <font><font color="#888888">Luc
Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium:</font></font></small>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><small>
Het is zeker geen "typo"...ik bedoelde wel degelijk dat een
"w" soms "t" wordt in bepaalde Brabantse woorden...maar niet
alleen in Brabants by the way:</small></div>
<div><small><br>
</small></div>
<div><small>new (E) = nieuw (D) = nuut (B) ... compare with
Swedish "<span title="Click for alternate translations">Gott
Nytt</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">År"
for "Good New Year"</span></small></div>
<small>
</small>
<div><small><span title="Click for alternate translations">blue
(E) = blauw (D) = blaat (B) ... </span></small></div>
<div><small>Sometimes also: raw (E) = r(a)uw (D) = raat (B), but
also rää (B)</small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for alternate translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for alternate translations">I
forgot to mention that "w" even sometimes turns into "g"
when at the back of a word:</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for alternate translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small>mellow (E) = murw (D) = mörg (B) (said of food that is
ready to eat, also meaning "drunk")</small></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thank you having answered to my appeal. I see, you are widening the
thread to the (linguistically perhaps weightyer) question of sound
shift and phonemic change, the mine was humbly limited to the
pronounciation of the written letters w, v, f in het
Standard-Netherlands. Of course are these topics related to each
other. <br>
<br>
For my limited concern to be assured that Netherlandish <b>'w'</b>
was originally (and - as I thing - <i><b>is</b></i> still in the
authentic civilized manner) pronounced as bilabial
approximated/fricative <b>as in English</b> I'd like to argue:<br>
<br>
The shift from w to t or g -<i> neuw > nuut, blauw > blaat,
r(a)uw > raat, murw > mörg - </i>is a kind of <b>"Hiattilgung"</b>,
a/one spontaneous way in folk speech to avoid the collition of too
many <b>vocals or diphthong + vocal. </b><br>
<br>
Reinhard's example in<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Low Saxon; e.g., <i>blau</i> ~ <i>blag'</i>
(Dutch spelling <i>blauw</i> ~ <i>blaog</i>', IPA [blaˑʊ] ~
[blɒːˑɣ]) 'blue'.</blockquote>
is of the same kind. I could add others in Westphalian like<br>
<br>
<i>niiu(w)(e) > nig(ge), vrii(e) > vrig(ge), vriien >
vriggen, wiie > wigge, bou(w)en > bovven</i> (of <i>bugen</i>
in other LS dialects).<br>
<br>
<b>Anyway this is an endmost averment of the Lowlandic 'w' being
generally articulated semi-vocally and <i>that is
bilabial-approximating!</i></b><br>
<pre cols="65">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow<br><br></pre></div>
<p class="MsoNormal">----------<br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">
From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></p>
Subject: Phonology<br><br>Joachim, you wrote above:<br><br><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">Reinhard's example in<br>
</div><blockquote style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153); margin-left: 40px;" type="cite">Low Saxon; e.g., <i>blau</i> ~ <i>blag'</i>
(Dutch spelling <i>blauw</i> ~ <i>blaog</i>', IPA [blaˑʊ] ~
[blɒːˑɣ]) 'blue'.</blockquote><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
is of the same kind. I could add others in Westphalian like</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
</span><i style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">niiu(w)(e) > nig(ge), vrii(e) > vrig(ge), vriien >
vriggen, wiie > wigge, bou(w)en > bovven</i><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);"> (of </span><i style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">bugen</i><span style="color: rgb(51, 0, 153);">
in other LS dialects).</span><br></div><br>You could also add <i>Froon ~ Froen ~ Fruun ~ Fruen ~ Frugen</i> 'women'.<br><br>But you need to distinguish between "true" /g/ and epenthetic [g]. Epenthetic [g] occurs a lot in dialects of Mecklenburg. See for instance Hanne's translation: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php</a> . There is the word <i>reigenweg</i> 'totally', which in other dialects is <i>reinweg</i>, based on the German loanword <i>rein</i> 'clean', 'pure(ly)' > Low Saxon 'totally', 'altogether', 'absolutely'.<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><br>----------<br><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.20 (04) [EN-NDS]</p><br><div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div align="center">- Nidderdüütsk-Westfœlsk tekst volgt unnedran -
<br>
</div>
<br>
Am 20.05.11 21:35, schrieb Joachim:
<blockquote type="cite"><b>Anyway
this is an endmost averment of the Lowlandic 'w' being generally
articulated semi-vocally and <i>that is
bilabial-approximating!</i></b></blockquote>
Dear Lowlanders <br>
(especially for those like Hanne mainly dealing with today's Low
German teksten),<br>
<br>
The above quoted sentence of mine does not mean, that every "w" in
present-day Low German texts should be pronounced bilabial as
English "w".<br>
<br>
<ol><li>In New LowGerman the bilabial [w] has almost been lost (rare
South-Westphalian exceptions, to wright it they use /b/, what in
effect is a shift to [b]).</li><li>New Low German has no (voiced) [v] - either lost or never have
had (because of Frisian influence?), so the use of f and v (as
in the official Duden orthography in High German) is rather
accidental. (See "vor", but "für" for the same radical word.)<br>
</li><li>New Low Saxon is widely following the Standard High German
spelling, which isn't rational.</li><li>The bilabial phonem [w] lost, in most cases the phonem [v] is
written (as in High German) as /w/. With the foreign and loan
word exceptions.</li></ol>
Therefore, the above sentence applies to English and Dutch as to
Middel Low Saxon, but not to New Low German Platt. (It <i>should</i>
be applied in the cases where it is historically correct like
"waar/wor, wind, wedder/wiär and the like).<br>
<br>
<div align="center">--------- Westfœlske samenvatting -------------<br>
<div align="left"><br>
Up 20 mey 1911 21:35 scraif Joachim:<br>
<br>
<div align="left"><b>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>Jedenvals is dat de endgüllige
bewiis, dat dat Laaglandske 'w' in't algemeyne half as
miieklinker (as halfvokaal) uutsproken word un dat heyt:
met nadering van beyde lippen (bilabial-apprximativ).</b></blockquote>
</b><br>
</div>
Leyve Laaglanders<br>
(sünnerlik vör dey as Hanne, de vöral met hüdigendags
Nidderdüütsk te doun hebben),<br>
<br>
Miin buaven citeerde zat/zin zolde nich bedüden, dat alle 'w' in
hüdigendagse Plat-teksten salt/müeten met twee lippen (bilabial)
as Ingels "w" uutsproken worden.<br>
<br>
<ol><li>In't Plat van vandage is dat bilabiale [w] verloren gaun.
(Et gift rare Züüd-Westfœlske uutnamen - die bruukt /b/ üm
et te scriven, wat man up een verscuving nach [b]
ruutsuurt.)</li><li>Hüdigendags Plat heft nin (stimhaft) [v] - verloren odder
nienich had (vanwegen Friisken invlut?), zo dat de bruuk van
f un v (ouk in de officieele Duden-scriifwiis vör
Haugdüütsk) tämelik touvällig is. (Zü "vor" un "für" vör
dezülvige woord-wordel.)</li><li>Nig-Niddersassisk (Plat) heft wiidgaunend de Standard
(Haug-)Düütske scriiving üövernomen, dey man nich van vernül
is.</li><li>Ümdat de tweelippige (bilabiale) luut [w] verloren gaun
is, word de luut [v] meestal, as in Haug-Düütsk, 'w' scriven
(uutnaam vremd- un leenwöörden), man dat is dan nich en
kenteken vör de bilabiale luut [w].</li></ol>
Dorüm drept de buaven citeerde zat/zin wol up Ingelsk en
Nidderlandsk (as ouk up Middelnidderdüütsk) tou, man nich up
Nig-Niddersassisk Plat. (Eygenlik zolde men et gliik in vällen
aanwenden, wor et historisk richtig wöör as bii <i>"waar/wor,
wind, wedder/wiär"</i> un dergliiken.)<br>
</div>
</div>
<pre cols="65">Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</pre>
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