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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 May 2011 - Volume 04<br>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"> </p>From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.22 (01) [EN]<br><br>Am 21.05.11 18:16, schrieb Marcus Buck:
<blockquote type="cite">"rein" is not a German loan. It's a normal Low Saxon
word. </blockquote>
I agree. ODutch/OSaxon <i>and</i> OHiG <big><i>rēni</i></big>,
Gothic <i>hrains</i>. I only suspected that the Meck-Pom
prononciation [ai] could be taken over from New High German.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><small>The "ei" diphthong that makes you think it's a
loan is the normal expected result of the original Old Saxon
"hraini". The Old Saxon diphthog "ai" changed to monophthongic
"ee" in Modern Low Saxon but the word-final "i" triggers Umlaut
and that's the reason why the modern word has "ei".</small><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I agree with the Umlautung and/or i-diphthongization because of the
"i" in the formerly following syllable. But: do you mean <b>[ai] or
[ei/ɛi]</b>? If the latter, I have no question. If the first [ai,
rain, raigen], I would ask you why this is to expect. <br>
<br>
In High German this, the [ai] for [ei/ɛi], was part of the New High
German vocal shift, in so far also "to expect", although I don't
know the reasons for the changes neither from Gothic [ai] to
Lowlandish/OHiGerm [e:/ei] nor for that from Middel
Lowlandish/Middel High German [e:/ei] to Modern HiGerm [ai]. As far
as I tried to study it, I only got the rather general answer, that
long vowels tend to be diphthongized.<br>
<pre cols="65"><small><small>Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries</small></small>, <small><small>Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</small></small></pre><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#00681c">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology"</span><br><br>Beste Marcus,<div><br><div><div>You wrote:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
Am 20.05.11 06:14, schrieb Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium:
<blockquote type="cite">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><small> Het is zeker
geen "typo"...ik
bedoelde wel degelijk
dat een "w" soms "t"
wordt in bepaalde
Brabantse
woorden...maar niet
alleen in Brabants by
the way:</small></div>
<div><small><br>
</small></div>
<div><small>new (E) =
nieuw (D) = nuut (B)
... compare with
Swedish "<span title="Click for
alternate
translations">Gott
Nytt</span> <span title="Click for
alternate
translations">År"
for "Good New Year"</span></small></div>
<small> </small>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations">blue
(E) = blauw (D) =
blaat (B) ... </span></small></div>
<div><small>Sometimes
also: raw (E) = r(a)uw
(D) = raat (B), but
also rää (B)</small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations">I
forgot to mention
that "w" even
sometimes turns into
"g" when at the back
of a word:</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small>mellow (E) =
murw (D) = mörg (B)
(said of food that is
ready to eat, also
meaning "drunk")</small></div>
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</blockquote></div>
I do not think that the final "t" is a result of sound shift from
"w" to "t". I rather think it's the same word with a different
morphological affix. In my native dialect of Low Saxon we have both
the words "nee" and "neet".<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>
It
may also be a case of analogy. "Old" and "new" are words that often
come as a pair...maybe hence: "ååt en nüüt" (B), both ending on "t". </div><div>However,
that explanation fails in the case of "blue" (E) > "blaat" (B),
'cause we have an expression here: "iemand graat en blaat slàgen",
litterally, "to beat somebody gray and blue". If it would have been for
analogy we might as well have said "iemand graa(f) en blaa(f) slàgen",
which we don't...both words get a "t" in the end.</div><div><br></div><div>This makes me think of a so called paragogic "t", consider for example:</div><div><br></div><div>"iemand, jemand" = "ie-man" + t</div>
<div>"arend" (D for eagle) = "aern" + t</div><div>"burcht" (D for borough) = "burg" + t</div><div>"schölft" (B for hayloft, ~ shelf (E)) = "schelf" + t</div><div>
<br></div><div>A paragogic "t" is mostly used with nouns however.</div><div><br></div><div>Last,
but maybe most likely, explanation could be that the formation evolved
somewhat along the same lines as "groente" (D for vegetables, Gemüse)
< edible green plants. "Groente" functions as a collective noun in
this case. The same may have happened to "blauwte", as a collective noun
for all things blue or a name for the color blue itself, not for the
property of being blue.</div><div><br></div><div>Then again, funny that
other colors didn't follow suit. Sure, main colors already had t/d at
the back: "wüt", "zwät", "roeët"...but "yellow" for example would
perfectly fit to become "ge(e)lt"...which it didn't. Maybe interference
with "geld" (money) stopped this evolution. Who knows?</div><div><br></div><div>Kind greetings,</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</div></font></div></div><br>----------<br>
<br>From: Hannelore Hinz <a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (01) [EN-NDS-NL]<br>
<br>
Leiw' Lowlanners,<br>
<br>
ick will man leiwer nahkamen Wüür verkloren (hemm' de Lütten so <i>reigenweg
</i>allein laten):<br>
<br>
rei(g)enweg: ok (auch), so as de Jungen de Reig' nah ut't Ei krapen
sünd<br>
<br>
reinweg, reinemang: völlig, gänzlich<br>
<br>
rein: rein <i>wi hebben rein Disch äten </i>alles aufgegessen; <i>dat
is rein tau dull; de is rein acht Johr olt,</i><br>
<br>
rein hett nicks mit Rägen [rain] tau daun.<br>
<br>
Apropos, ein <b>Diphthong</b> ward nich so snackt as hei schräwen
is, dat deden woll blot de Ostpreußen, taun Bispill: das Ei, das
jälbe/jalbe von das Ee-i. Richtig: Ei : <i>ae</i>.<br>
<br>
Schönen Sünndag.<br>
<br>
Hanne<br>
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