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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 May 2011 - Volume 01<br>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"> </p>From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.20 (05) [EN]<br>
<br>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<small>Am 21.05.11 00:05, schrieb Reinhard/Ron:</small>
<blockquote type="cite"><small>But you need to distinguish between "true" /g/
and epenthetic [g]. Epenthetic [g] occurs a lot in dialects of
Mecklenburg. See for instance Hanne's translation: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php</a>
. There is the word <i>reigenweg</i> 'totally', which in other
dialects is <i>reinweg</i>, based on the German loanword <i>rein</i>
'clean', 'pure(ly)' > Low Saxon 'totally', 'altogether',
'absolutely'.</small><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hi best Reinhard,<br>
<br>
indeed, it seems to occur extremely often in Meck-Pom Plat, possibly
because of Westphalian and Flemish, Brabants influence, maybe
"verselbständigt" or independent.<br>
<br>
But, in my first view, in <i>reigenweg</i> instead of <i>reinweg</i>
we have the same Hiattilgung (hiatus deletion) as in your's, Luc's
and mine erstwhile examples, isn't it? Nontheless there is a
difference: The Meck-Pom "rein" is [rain] and as such possibly a
High German loan (Low Saxon "reen, reyn") and a simple diphthong
thereover. But on the other hand we have "reggen" as usual
alternative for "reen" in Westphalian, too. And think about your own
forename, Reginhart …<br>
<br>
They are all one sort of Epenthesis (meaning "addition of one or
more sounds to a word, especially to the interior of a word"),
therefore of course no "true" /g/ or whatever other consonant
(vowels in other cases).<br>
<br>
I agree if you say that all these consonants mentioned aren't
original but "epenthetic". But please explain me, if you wanted to
state that e. g. the /g/ in one of my exemples or the /g/ in your
example<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><i>blau</i> ~ <i>blag'</i> (Dutch spelling
<i>blauw</i> ~ <i>blaog</i>', IPA [blaˑʊ] ~ [blɒːˑɣ]) 'blue'</blockquote>
<br>
were "true", but some others epenthetic (additional). And what were
the difference?<br>
<pre cols="65"><small><small>Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</small></small></pre>
</div><br>--------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>> <br>
Subject: Phonology<br><br>Good points, Joachim. See also Marcus below.<br><br>But also remember that Hanne's dialect is an [aˑɪ] and [aˑʊ] dialect (e.g., <i>Bein</i>, <i>Bauk</i>) as opposed to [ɛˑɪ] and [ɔˑʊ] dialects (e.g., <i>Been</i>, <i>Book</i>) for the same respective phonemes.<br>
<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);">Reginhart …</span><br></div><br>Raginhart, I thought.<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br><br>----------<br><br>From: Joachim <<a href="mailto:Osnabryg%2BLowlands@googlemail.com">Osnabryg+Lowlands@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.19 (04) [NDS]<br><br><font size="+1"> <small><small>Up 20 mey 1911 21:35 scraif Joachim:<br>
</small></small></font>
<blockquote type="cite"><small><small> </small></small><small><small><font size="+1"><small><small><b>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>Jedenvals
is dat de endgüllige bewiis, dat dat Laaglandske
'w' in't algemeyne half as miieklinker (as
halfvokaal) uutsproken word un dat heyt: met
nadering van beyde lippen (bilabial-apprximativ).</b></blockquote>
</b></small></small></font></small></small></blockquote>
<font size="+1"> Zo'n unzin. "half as miieklinker", nee nee, dit
solde heten "half as klinker (as halfvokaal)". Natüürlik ouk "appr<b>
o</b> ximativ", naderend.<br>
<br>
Man dat hewwet ji vermoudelik al erkent.</font> <br>
<pre cols="65">--
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow</pre><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.21 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br>
<font size="+1"> </font><div>It's called <em>yogh</em>; it was used for the now silent sounds in
thought, bought etc. OE had the sound, but just used an "h": cniht,
niht etc. It faded with printing as it was an extra piece needed when
"gh" was close enough (there it is again!), and it was beginning ti
disappear as a sound inSouthern England by Caxton's time.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is an interesting hangover of <em>yogh</em> in the Scottish
name Menzies, often pronounced "Mingus", especially as a first name -
politician Sir Menzies Campbell for example. The "z" was actually a <em>yogh</em> in earlier times.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div>Derby</div>
<div>England</div><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Phonology" 2011.05.19 (03) [EN-NDS]</span><br>
<br><div class="im">
Am 20.05.11 06:14, schrieb Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><small> Het is zeker
geen "typo"...ik
bedoelde wel degelijk
dat een "w" soms "t"
wordt in bepaalde
Brabantse
woorden...maar niet
alleen in Brabants by
the way:</small></div>
<div><small><br>
</small></div>
<div><small>new (E) =
nieuw (D) = nuut (B)
... compare with
Swedish "<span title="Click for
alternate
translations">Gott
Nytt</span> <span title="Click for
alternate
translations">År"
for "Good New Year"</span></small></div>
<small> </small>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations">blue
(E) = blauw (D) =
blaat (B) ... </span></small></div>
<div><small>Sometimes
also: raw (E) = r(a)uw
(D) = raat (B), but
also rää (B)</small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations">I
forgot to mention
that "w" even
sometimes turns into
"g" when at the back
of a word:</span></small></div>
<div><small><span title="Click for
alternate
translations"><br>
</span></small></div>
<div><small>mellow (E) =
murw (D) = mörg (B)
(said of food that is
ready to eat, also
meaning "drunk")</small></div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote></div>
I do not think that the final "t" is a result of sound shift from
"w" to "t". I rather think it's the same word with a different
morphological affix. In my native dialect of Low Saxon we have both
the words "nee" and "neet".<br><div class="im">
<br>
From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
</div><blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>But you need to distinguish
between "true" /g/ and
epenthetic [g]. Epenthetic [g]
occurs a lot in dialects of
Mecklenburg. See for instance
Hanne's translation: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/mekelnborgsch.php</a>
. There is the word <i>reigenweg</i>
'totally', which in other
dialects is <i>reinweg</i>,
based on the German loanword <i>rein</i>
'clean', 'pure(ly)' > Low
Saxon 'totally', 'altogether',
'absolutely'.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
"rein" is not a German loan. It's a normal Low Saxon word. The "ei"
diphthong that makes you think it's a loan is the normal expected
result of the original Old Saxon "hraini". The Old Saxon diphthog
"ai" changed to monophthongic "ee" in Modern Low Saxon but the
word-final "i" triggers Umlaut and that's the reason why the modern
word has "ei".<br>
<br>
Marcus Buck<br><br>
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