<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" id=":1ek" class="ii gt"><div id=":1el"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div>
<div><div><div>
<div><div>
<div><div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
<font size="2">==============================</font><font size="2">=======================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 June 2011 - Volume 01<br><a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a>
</font><font size="2">
- <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
Posting: <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Archive: <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</a><br>
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)<br>
Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php" target="_blank">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a><br>
==============================</font><font size="2">=======================</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"> </font></p>From:
<span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Henno Brandsma</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a></span></span><br>Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2011.06.12 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br><div><div class="im"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;margin-left:0in">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></div>
Subject: Grammar<br><br>Hello, Lowlanders!<br><br>As many of you are no
doubt aware, Northern German dialects are variously influenced by Low
Saxon, owing to Low Saxon substrata in a region in which Low Saxon used
to be used by practically everyone when German encroached. Some of these
influences made it into general Standard German. <br>
<br>I was thinking of this when I mulled over what I consider now widely ingrained "confusion" of German <i>als</i> in the sense of "than" and German <i>wie</i> in the sense of "as". Low Saxon uses <i>as</i> in both instances.<br>
<br>I am old enough to remember being taught to distinguish in German as
follows (probably because our teachers were aware of our local
"weakness"):<br><ul><li><b><i>Er ist so alt <u>wie</u> ich.</i></b><br>He is as old <b>as </b>me.<br>
Dutch: <i><span lang="nl"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hij</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is zo</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">oud</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations"><b>als </b>ik</span><span title="Click for alternate translations">.<br>
</span></span></i><span lang="nl"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Afrikaans: </span></span><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span></i><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hy</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">so oud</span> <b><span title="Click for alternate translations">soos</span></b> <span title="Click for alternate translations">(< so as) my</span><span title="Click for alternate translations">.</span></span><span lang="nl"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span></i></li>
<li><b><i>Er ist älter <u>als</u> ich.</i></b><br>He is older <b>than </b>me.<br>Dutch: <span lang="nl"><i><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hij</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">ouder <b>dan </b>ik</span></i><span title="Click for alternate translations"><i>.</i></span></span><br>
<span lang="nl"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Afrikaans: </span></span><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span></i><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hy</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">ouer</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations"><b>as </b>ek</span><span title="Click for alternate translations">.</span></span></i><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"></span></span></i></li>
</ul>Low Saxon:<br><ul><li><i>He is so old <b>as </b>ik (dat bün).</i><br>He is as old <b>as </b>me.</li><li><i>He is </i><i>öller </i><i><b>as </b>ik (dat bün).</i><br>
He is older <b>than </b>me.<br></li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Yn ús Frysk is it beide "as".</div><div><br></div><div>- Hy is like âld as ik</div>
<div> (He is as old as me / as I am)</div><div>- Hy is âlder as ik</div><div> (He is older than me)</div><div><br></div><div>Traditioneel heeft het Nederlands "als" in de eerste en "dan" in het tweede geval,</div>
<div>zoals we boven zagen, echter, "dan" is al generaties lang aan het verliezen in de spreektaal,</div><div>en in ouder Nederlands is "ouder als" heel gewoon, en veel Nederlanders gebruiken </div><div>
deze doorelkaar. Een extreem voorbeeld (humoristisch) zien we in Koot en Bie:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdsx9qnHVM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdsx9qnHVM</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>(na +- een minuut), waar een "expert" consequent "dan" en "als" doorelkaar gebruikt</div><div>(leidend tot grote verwarring). de "dan-als" kwestie is al jaren een discussiepunt in taalnormdiscussies. </div>
<div class="im"><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>In Northern German, and lately increasingly in Standard German, I mostly hear sentences like this:<br><ul><li><i>Er ist älter <b>wie </b></i><i>ich.</i><br>
He is older <b>than </b>me.<br>
</li></ul>According to the older prescriptive grammar this would have the following meaning:<br><ul><li><i>Er ist älter, <b>wie </b></i><i>(auch) ich.</i></li><li><i>He is öller, <b>as </b>ik (dat [ook] bün).</i><br>
He is older, <b>as </b>am I.<br>Dutch: <span lang="nl"><i><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hij</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">ouder</span> <b><span title="Click for alternate translations">als</span> </b><span title="Click for alternate translations">ik</span></i><span title="Click for alternate translations"><i>.</i> (?)</span></span><br>
Afrikaans: <i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations">Hy</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">is</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations">ouer</span> <span title="Click for alternate translations"><b>soos </b>ek</span><span title="Click for alternate translations">.</span></span></i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"> (?)</span></span><i><span lang="af"><span title="Click for alternate translations"><br>
</span></span></i></li></ul>I am wondering if within comparatives generalization of German <i>wie</i> and <i>als</i> to <i>wie</i> is due to the influence of general <i>as</i> in Low Saxon.<br></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>It could very well be a simplification, like in Dutch, where "als" is used for all comparisons in popular speech and</div><div>
also "waar/daar", "die/wie" as pronouns introducing dependent clauses are confused as well (het huis wat daar staat, instead</div><div>of the correct "het huis dat daar staat", e.g.) </div><div>
Of course having a local language that already has lost that distinction only hastens this. I think from own observation, that</div><div>less educated Frisians will also use "als" voor both "als" and "dan" in their Dutch.</div>
<div class="im"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div>regards, groetnis</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>Henno Brandsma</div><div>(Voorburg, the Netherlands)</div>
</font><span lang="da"><span title="Click for alternate translations"><br>
</span></span><font color="#888888">----------<br><br></font>From:
"Stellingwerfs Eigen" <<a href="mailto:info@stellingwerfs-eigen.nl">info@stellingwerfs-eigen.nl</a>><br>Subject: LL-L: "Grammar"<br><br><div>Beste Ron,<br>> About Your(?) confusion 'als/dan' het
volgende.<br>In het Nederlands is het (vooral in schrijftaal) gewoonte om 'dan'
te gebruiken indien in de vergelijking een ongelijkheid (unequalty) wordt
verondersteld. Indien een gelijkheid (equalty) wordt verondersteld dan schrijven
we 'als'. (In spreektaal is het verschil in gebruik vaak minder
duidelijk.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Equalty (als)<br>D: Er ist so alt wie ich.<br>WF: Hy is lieke âld as
my/ik.<br>Ned: Hij is (net) zo oud als mij/ik.<br>Stell: Hi'j is lieke oold as
mi'j/ik(ke).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Unequalty (dan)<br>D: Er ist älter/junger als ich.<br>WF: Hy is
âlder/jonger as my / (as (dat) ik bin).<br>Ned: Hij is ouder/jonger dan
mij/ik.<br>Stell: Hi'j is oolder/jonger as mi'j / (as ik bin).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Pay att. to de diff. between the use of: as 'me' / als 'mij' (more common),
instead of: as 'ik' / als 'ik'.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In zowel het WF (Westlauwers Frysk) als in het Stellingwerfs
(Nedersaksisch) kennen we (in schrijftaal) het probleem niet en gebruiken
we altijd: as (als). In spreektaal schuiven ze overigens beide wel een
beetje op naar het Nederlandse onderscheid en is 'dan' (âlder dan / oolder dan)
niet - langer meer - ongebruikelijk.</div>
Mit een vrundelike groet uut Stellingwarf,<br>Piet
Bult<br><br>----------<br><br><big>From</big>: Hannelore Hinz <a href="mailto:hannehinz@t-online.de" target="_blank"><hannehinz@t-online.de></a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.06.12 (01) [EN]<br>
<br>
Is jug hüt gor nich so nah Pingsten, all' sünd so flietig, 't möckt
je ok Spaaß.<br>
<br>
<i><b>wenn sick nicks ännert, Positiv: </b></i>Korl is so olt <b>as</b>
Hannes. / Karl ist so alt <b>wie</b> Hannes.<br>
<i><b>nu deit sick wat, Komparativ: </b></i>Vadder is dicker <b>as</b>
Mudder. /Vati ist dicker <b>als </b>Mutti.<br>
<i><b>nu will ein hoch rut, Superlativ: </b></i>Martin is <b>an'n</b>
<b>gröttsten </b>von sien soeben Bräuder./ Martin ist<br>
<b>am
größten </b>von seinen sieben Brüdern.<br>
<br>
<b>as </b>als, wie, mnd. <i>alse, als.</i><br>
Vergleichend und gleichsetzend; <i>dee is so lang as Lewerenzen sin
Kind; dat Kätelseil un Emmerband möt blank sin as de Schöttelrand.<br>
<br>
</i>In der Doppelsetzung bewahrt das erste <i><b>as</b></i><b><i> </i></b>die
hinweisende Bedeutung, welche dem mnd. <i>alse <br>
</i>ebensogut wie die rückbezügliche eigen war; <i>'n Zopp achter
'n Kopp <b>as</b> lang un <b>as</b> 'n rökerten Spickaal.</i><br>
<br>
Nach Kompar.; Verneinung u. ähnl.: <i>bäter 'n drögen Knust as ne
leddige Fust.<br>
</i>Häufig die spezialisierende, erläuternde Bezugsnahme auf eine
Person, in der Regel die erste Person<br>
des. pers. Pron., vgl.: <i>ick wir denn rik, dat heit <b>as</b>
ick </i>R<small>EUT<big>.</big></small><br>
<br>
Die Vergleichung verfolgt den Zweck, eine Gelegenheit, eine
scheinbare Gleichheit, eine Ähnlichkeit oder eine nahezu erreichte
Gleichheit auszudrücken: <i>dat is<b> as </b>so</i> das ist in
der Art von...<br>
<br>
Die Bezugsnahme will eine Begründung geben: <i>denn wir he wedder
as gesund dor.<br>
<br>
</i>Zur Einführung von Zeitsätzen: <i>as ick minen Deenst anbot,
würd min Lohn nich grot.</i><br>
<br>
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert<br>
<br>
Auch im niederdeutschen Liedgut findet man diese Anwendung: <b>As</b>
Burlala geburen was; <b>As</b> de junge Mann wull op frien utgahn;
<b>As</b> ick noch 'n lütt Deern weer.<br>
<br>
Un so <b>as</b> du dat meinst Ron, is dat noch af un an
hütigendaags. Weck seggen ümmer noch <i>Vadder is dicker <b>wie </b>Mudder.
Vater ist dicker <b>wie</b> Mutter.<br>
<br>
</i><b>wie </b>das hd. Wort. Interr.-Adv.; <i><b>wie</b> is 't
blot moeglich; <b>wie</b> kümmt dat Diert hierher</i>.<br>
<br>
Konj. in Vergleichen; <i>de Jung' is all grötter <b>wie </b>sin
Mudder;<b><br>
</b></i><b>echt nd. ist <i>as.<br>
- </i></b>w i e a n s Interr.-Adv. wie : <i>wieans sall ick
dat verstahn?</i><br>
Syn. <i>wie<br>
</i>Ok hier Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert <br>
<br>
Noch ein Henwiesen:<br>
Un <b>woans</b>, Interr.-Adv. wie <i>wo; woans? </i>wie, wie
denn? Auch <i>wuans? </i>wie, auf welche Weise?;<br>
<i>woso un woans</i><b><i> </i></b>R<small>EUT.</small> <br>
<br>
Ick glöw, dat <i>als/as </i>un <i>wie</i>/<i>wie </i>ward
womoeglich verkihrt insett', wiel sick de Minschen tau wenig 'n Kopp
maken.<br>
<br>
Noch lütt' Freud för den'n Rest von Pingsten.<br>
<br>
Hanne <div bgcolor="#ffffff"><br></div><font color="#888888"><br></font><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
<font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">==============================</font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">===========================<br>
Send posting submissions to <a href="mailto:lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>.<br>
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<br>
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to<br><a href="mailto:listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
</font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">
or <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@gmail.com" target="_blank">lowlands.list@gmail.com</a><br><a href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target="_blank">http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</a>
</font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2">.<br><a href="http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498</a>
</font><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size="2"><br>
==============================</font><font size="2">==============================</font><font size="2">===</font></p>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>