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L O W L A N D S - L - 20 August 2011 - Volume 02<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"> </font></p>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#00681c">Luc Hellinckx</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica"<br></span><br>Beste Ingmar, Marlou, Jacqueline...and other Leeglanners,<div><br><div><div>Ingmar, you wrote:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
<div>
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>
Btw: in Belgian Dutch/Flemish, one hears very often: ik zie u graag,
lit: I'm seeing you with pleasure, meaning I love you/je t'aime. One can
also say: zie me graag! = love me!<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure,
but that's more like the uptown variety of "Ik zie u gaarne": 'k zien a
gèèrn. "Graag" does not exist in traditional dialect, it's
gaarne/geerne/gèèrn/gèère all the way ;=) When "love" is not (yet) in
sight, one would rather say "Ik heb je gaarne", "'k Ém a gèèrn"</div><div><br></div><div>Usually
(Van Dale), the meaning of "houden van" is explained as a figurative
use of "houden" in the sense of "to stick", for example:</div><div><br></div><div>"Met een beetje lijm zal dat wel houden" ~ "It'll stick with a bit of glue"..."It will hold"</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, I seem to think that along the way another (older) word "houde" has played a role too.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=18185" target="_blank">HOUDE - MNW (Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek)</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>"Houde"
(or hulde for that matter...same word, but a recent reconstruction), is
a word that was very popular during the Middle Ages, it was often used
to describe the respect that a liege should pay to his lord (also from a
layman towards god). Cf. German Huld/hold:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?lemid=GA00001" target="_blank">Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm</a> </div>
<div><br></div><div>By
extension the word can also mean "plain friendly", check Grimm's second
meaning, how it's used in Beowulf and what Goethe and Schiller wrote.</div><div><br></div><div>"Hulde doen/hou(de) doen" meant "trouw beloven"...small step to falling in love methinks ;=)</div></div>
</div><div><div><div><br></div><div>The
word also features in the official slogan of the city of Ghent: "Hou
ende trou", a translation of Latin "Fides et Amor"...there we have it:
"love"...fidelity and love...same boat ;=) When you love somebody, you
sort of want to pay tribute to him/her. Just my 2 ¢ of course ;=)</div><div><br></div><div>On
a sidenote, we also have a saying in Brabantish "dat gaat over zijn
hout/houd" (da gààt over zön aat), when you want to point out that
something can no longer be tolerated. I'm not sure, but this "hout/houd"
may be the same word too, another possibility is relationship with
English "a hold", as in "keeping a firm hold on something".</div><div><br></div><div>Kind greetings,</div><div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium</div></font></div></div>
<span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">
</span><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#5b1094">Arend Victorie</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:victorie.a@home.nl">victorie.a@home.nl</a></span></span><br>Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]</span><br>
<br><p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Moi Leeglaanders,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="DE">Ik bin ’t hier mit
Marlou iens.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="DE"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Ok bij oonz in Drenthe is ‘t (Ik
holle van oe) nog jong.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">De Drent van hiel vrogger höl ’t
miestal bij <Ik mag oe geern zien>. </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Of < Ik wul ’t geern mit oe perberen></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Goodgaon,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Arend Victorie </span></font><br>
<i><font color="#7f003f"><br>----------<br><br></font></i>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#790619">Pat Reynolds</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:pat@caerlas.co.uk">pat@caerlas.co.uk</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]</span><br><br><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Steven Hanson said:</span></p><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<span>Ø<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-font-feature-settings: normal; -moz-font-language-override: normal;"> </span></span>The
idea of ‘holding in high regard’ makes me think of Catalan, wherein one
might say ‘t’estimo’ for ‘I love you’. ‘Estimo’ makes me think of
English ‘esteem’, which leads ‘holding someone in high esteem’, which
brings me back full circle to Dutch ‘houden van’. :-D</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>I had thought that it paralleled the English ‘to cleave to’. Or ‘be attached to’. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span>Cheers,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span>Pat</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">---</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 20pt; color: black;">Pat Reynolds</span></p><p style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: times new roman,serif;" class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(148, 54, 52);">It may look messy now ...</span></p><span style="font-size: 14pt; color: rgb(148, 54, 52); font-family: times new roman,serif;"> ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).</span></div>
<br style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#c88900">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]</span><br><br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hello Marlou, Ron, Steven, Igmar and Henry</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Talking
about the different ways people use to say they ‘love’ each other
brings me back to the old question: Do we make our language or does our
language make us.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">‘Love’
can be described as anything from the exalted to the profane. It even
can be distorted hate (just think how women (maybe men too) who have
been tormented by their torturers can say “But I still love him”) ‘To
love’ can have many meanings (agape, eros, familiality etc. etc). If the
Dutch say “ ik houd van jou”, maybe they see their loved ones more like
a cherished object. After all one of the character traits we are being
accused of is that we as a nation are materialistic! Don’t forget that
we do not have the differentiation between ‘like’ and ‘love’. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D" lang="NL">We say “ik houd van mijn kinderen” with the same ease as we say “ik houd van een boterham met kaas”. If you <u>like</u> a person, you say “ik vind hem/haar wel aardig”. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">There
is also the question of Are we ‘allowed’ to express certain feelings? I
think Marlou hit the nail on the head with her remarks about
understatement. To ‘esteem’ a person is something entirely different
from “having a crush on somebody”. ‘Verliefd zijn op iemand’ has little
to do with ‘esteem’ but much more with hormones etc.etc. Still they are
all aspects of love and depending on the culture in which we live
different aspects are allowed. The parents who have their daughters
circumsized are convinced they do this out of love, but here their
culture is clearly more important than their daughter.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">What do you guys think?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Jacqueline BdJ</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Seattle Wa, USA</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PS.
I just finished reading “The Forty Rules of Love” by Elif Shafak. It is
a flawed book but it gives a clear insight into how the Sufis practice
it.<br><br>----------<br></span><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#790619">Mark and Ruth Dreyer</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.9 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2">Beste Henry</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Subject: LL-L Love<br></div>
<div><font size="2">I'm sure you'll be swamped with input from all the
other Lowlands languages, so I might as well present the Afrikaans perspective
as well. In the Taal we say for "I love you." = "Ek het jou lief." In this I
think we are nearer to the German.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">"Ek hou van jou." is nearer to "I like you."
If a serious boy tried that to a serious girl about a serious
relationship he'd get a flea in his ear, if he was just plain lucky. Say it
straight out or not at all... For most of my community of course it is the
latter case. Mind you, you could offer it as a confession of intent to a close
friend about your girlfriend, "Ek hou van haar", even though you'd never,
ever, till Death do you part, bare your heart to her.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">"Your beloved" is "Jou beminde." & "Lovers" are
"Minnaar en minnaares." Mind you, to say something like "Ek min you." would get
you at least a raised eyebrow, perhaps " 'n klap teen die bek", "a
clout on the (animal) mouth". On the other hand, I have heard a dedicated
engineer of the Afrikaans language seriously propose it's institution in common
use. Won't work: "Ek min jou." so crassly put puts one in mind of something
somewhat cruder than that which one offers to a loved one...</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Groete,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Mark<br><br>----------<br><br></font>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color:#790619">Henry Pijffers</span> <span class="go"><a href="mailto:henry.pijffers@gmail.com">henry.pijffers@gmail.com</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.19 (02) [EN-NL]<br><br></span>Jacqueline wrote:<br>
><br>
> I think the question is: do you say it?<br>
><br>
I don't know about the rest (of the Twentenaren), but in my family<br>
nobody ever said "ik hou van jou" or "ik vind je lief". By never I<br>
truly mean never in the strictest sense of the word. Never had a Saxon<br>
speaking loved one either, So the "Ik hold' van u" is my personal<br>
concoction actually.<br>
<br>
But I'd still like to know, cause just because others don't use it,<br>
doesn't mean I can't.<br>
<br>
Ron wrote:<br>
><br>
> I would say:<br>
> Written: Ik heff di leef.<br>
> Phonemic: /ʔik hev diy leyv/<br>
> Phonetic: [ʔɪk hɛf di ˈlɛɪf]<br>
><br>
> Cf. German:<br>
> Ich liebe dich. (I love you [lover])<br>
> Ich habe dich lieb. (I love you [relative, friend, etc.])<br>
><br>
Yes, I could say "Ik heb u leef", just like we say "ik heb je lief" in<br>
Dutch, but that's along another line. I'm wondering if there's an<br>
equivalent to "Ich liebe dich" in Saxon.<br>
<br>
love,<br>
<font color="#888888">Henry</font><br><span class="gI"><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="go"></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">Idiomatica</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></div></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Henry,</span> Lowlanders,<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Let me put it another way:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ich liebe dich. </span><b style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">= romantic</b><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ich habe dich lieb. </span><b style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">= platonic</b><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon (DE):</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ik heff di leef. </span><b style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">= romantic</b><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(Ik bün di good </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">= romantic</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> archaic)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(Ik bün di todaan </span><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">= romantic</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> archaic)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Marlou suggested:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ik heff di geern.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ik kann di good lieden.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And I add:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ik hold wat/vẹẹl vun di.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Within a modern (Germanized) context, I see these as marginal, as able to express either romantic or platonic love, depending on the relationship. Similar to German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ich habe dich gern</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, they can in some contexts simply mean 'I like you'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My hunch is that within traditional (i.e. not touchy-feely) Low Saxon culture platonic love was/is rarely if ever expressed verbally, and romantic love was/is expressed in a way that seems understated from a German standpoint.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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